While I'm on the subject...

[botias]

The notion trotted forth at the end of the show, that there's an indelible personality or 'soul' that can't be expunged by changes to the brain... :/ It seems romantic and a 'triumph of the human spirit' on the surface, but what about personalities who succumb completely to dementia or brain injury? If I had lost someone I cared about in such a way, I don't know that I would be very uplifted.

Probably the most effective part of the show for me was November's relationship with 'obsessed agent guy.' (The only character names I can remember are the dolls and Topher for some reason.) The gradual set-up to that, and their pain when he realizes what she is, was nicely done. He's bonked a doll, his personal model of icky behavior, and come to love someone who doesn't exist. She is programmed perfectly to push his buttons and to truly suffer when he withdraws from her, and he can't do anything to ease her. Even to try would put himself and his quest in mortal danger. A beautiful tangle!

ETA: A select group of 'Good' vampires/werepersons fight the 'Bad' vampires/werepersons who prey on the largely ignorant human populace. Who did this first I wonder, and why does it seem to be the basis for most paranormal romance? The first place I read it is Christine Feehan's Dark series. Now I feel compelled to think of another way. Werepersons who were created as guardians for the 'fey' perhaps. Hybrids who can cope with mortal dangers that the otherwise powerful fey cannot. Tension in that the proud purebreds must rely on the WPs for their lives, yet they consider them lesser and alien and find it difficult to trust them. Evil beings who are not evil so much as really, really hungry.

Comments

[botias.livejournal.com]

I loved those bits. :) I think it's the Joss humor and dialog that finally surfaced that is keeping me watching more than anything else. Certainly Topher is my mouthpiece in the business. But the 'reality' that Joss presented was that Alpha carves people up even when he's been wiped clean, and Alpha equally fails to create a psychopath out of Echo. I got the idea that there was some sort of indelible element to people that the Dollhouse couldn't change with material means, and that this was a triumph of sorts for Echo. Even wiped, she was 'someone,' something unique and inviolable.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

but what about personalities who succumb completely to dementia or brain injury?

My father died last month from complications from Alzheimers and I have to say, long after he forgot everything about us and himself but before he spent most of his days unconscious, his sense of humor remained stable and there were some things he would do that he had always done. I do believe there is a core self that we never lose.

For what it's worth I don't think Joss ever did think of a soul in terms of religion. In many ways I think Spike's journey and Echoe's journey are Joss's way of exploring some of the same concepts.

[prophecygirrl.livejournal.com]

It did seem to me that Joss was doing his best to write Buffy meta through much of the final episode. Echo's defiant refusal to be evil despite being wiped reminded me so much of her fight with Spike in the Halloween recipe? What's left when you take X, Y, and Z away? In this case, your memories. Answer: Me!

I was happily surprised when they went as far with the November and Paul(?) as they did. You're right, it was high tragedy, and very well done.

[(Anonymous)]

ETA: The Dark series. I've never read any of the books, I have looked up the site and you can read the first chapter of each book. I must say the sexual tension is heavy, and who says you need a man around to have an orgasm, just read the books! There are several series of supernatural vampires/werepersons. Each with their take of the whole thing. It mostly reminds me of the 'Underworld' movie franchise. There is also the whole 'Twilight' books, too. I guess anyone can intertwine them almost anyway they want.

[elynne.livejournal.com]

People afflicted with a disease which forces them to behave in a way they can't control at times, which includes the possibility (though not requirement) of preying on other people. Their choices are pretty much 1. live with it as best they can, usually in denial; 2. try to minimize the "killing people" part of the situation through various means; 3. kill themselves, which is made difficult because of the disease. For bonus extra fun, another side effect of the disease enables those afflicted to recognize other carriers, and makes them uncomfortable to the point of a near-uncontrollable fight-or-flight reaction - so they won't be ganging up to do, well, much of anything.

... yes, I've thought about this a bit. ;)

[botias.livejournal.com]

I've read that there are some habits, memories and phrases whose pathways are so reinforced and thickly myelinated that they survive even when dementia has destroyed almost everything else. In that sense, the biology would fit well with the Dollhouse mythology which hints that the process of wiping minds can't quite take everything.

But Joss seems to be saying that a) there is a core we never lose (or that is the last thing to go) and b) the core is one's ethics/morality/code of conduct. I can't get on board with that last bit, since it's my understanding that it is quite untrue.

OR Joss is saying that there is a core self that we never lose and it's not a part the material brain at all and so can't be altered by physical changes in the brain. I REALLY can't get on board with that one.

It helped that with the Buffyverse he explored this in mystical terms. He can explore psychology and heroism and core beliefs all he wants, when it's represented by some glowy sphere acquired in an African cave, and not trample my nerd sensibilities.

And OMG it's just a show, I should really just chill. :)

[botias.livejournal.com]

I agree. I just wish my biology nerdiness wasn't making it fall totally flat for me. It's kinda like Joss is saying that Echo can't be made evil because humans evolved from birds who mate for life. It just dun make sense. *Bolts for the comfort of the Buffyverse*

[botias.livejournal.com]

Yup. The series is big on the sex. Too bad fan fiction ruined it all for me. Nobody writes smut like a talented fan with no editorial constraints.

[botias.livejournal.com]

This of course, makes me think 'vampirism'. :P Or perhaps would explain non-random patterns in zombie distributions.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I see what you are saying but is he saying that this core self is across the board or is he saying that Echo, in particular, has an extremely strong sense of self. Sure there are some things that seem to come through in the other dolls, such as Victor's attraction to Sierr, and attraction could easily be something so primal that we never lose it. For the most part, though, the sense of self seems to be Echo alone.

For all we know Echo herself is the mole and she was conditioned, long before she ever entered the Dollhouse, to somehow be able to maintain a sense of self in order to be able to function as a mole.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

In regards to good vamps versus bad vamps, I saw it first in Marvel comics in the 70s in the Blade and Morbius series.

Hybrids who can cope with mortal dangers that the otherwise powerful fey cannot. Tension in that the proud purebreds must rely on the WPs for their lives, yet they consider them lesser and alien and find it difficult to trust them. Evil beings who are not evil so much as really, really hungry.

This description reminds me of the Elfquest series, also produced in the 70s. Especially if you replace the word hungry with the word arrogant.

When I read Feehan I was struck by the derivativeness of the series so she's definitely not the first person to do the good paranormals versus bad paranormals who prey on the weak powerless humans.

FWIW, obsessed agent guy is Paul Ballard. Oddly, the only times I *can* remember characters' names on shows that I haven't watched for seasons on end are when they are written by Joss.

Thank you very much for this and your last post. The discussion has been fascinating. Something I usually only get when Joss has a television show and something I greatly missed in those long dark years between Angel and Dollhouse.

[(Anonymous)]

Amen sister to that.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Ah! Thanks for the input on the GVs vs. BVs. I hadn't realized that Blade was that venerable. Interesting.

Yes, I can see that. :) I read a fair number of the Elfquest books in high school.

Yes, Feehan is not going to be winning any prizes, though she seems to be one of the more successful writers, sales wise. Sherilyn Kenyon is another successful writer that uses this theme. I think she does a better job of it and her Greek and Roman mythology basis was new, to me anyway. I liked the notion that vamps couldn't go in out in the day because they had been cursed by the sun god, Apollo.

No problem. :) Joss's shows really get me on a different level than other shows. Perhaps if I watched dramas that would be different, but Joss manages to create thinky, emotionally resonant, popular entertainment--most of the time.