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botiasDear Dr. J,
I found your post titled "Pornographic query: Is a DP inherently sexist?" while doing a search on the internet to seek out pornographic images about DP. I was particularly struck by your observation #2: "In my 48 years, I have never met a woman outside the pornography industry who has acknowledged participating in a DP or having a desire to do so."
What may interest you is that I am female and that this activity [browsing for DP porn] was suggested by a female friend who not only finds such porn arousing, but simulates this act with a single partner and vibe. I personally use DP fantasies with a partner and use positions that simulate it. It is not hard to find on the internet porn written by women for women that is DP. However, it does not surprise me that it is hard to find women who feel comfortable admitting this to a stranger. I think women's sexuality is much more closeted than men's, especially as it gets less mainstream.
The more I experience women's sexuality in the anonymity of the internet, the more I am convinced that its expression does not differ as greatly from men's as many people believe. Men like girl-on-girl, women write a tremendous amount of 'slash' or guy-on-guy and consume a great deal of gay porn. Women also write a fair bit of torture and BDSM porn, that genre that is so controversial when created and consumed by men. I think sexual expression differs much more within the sexes than between them.
Yours, A
My experience is that women's sexuality is considerably different. And it's interesting to ponder whether a pornographic culture might have something to do with the experience you describe.
Best, J
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I have now read some more of your work, and I strongly agree with your feelings about the misogyny and sexual violence. However, I also feel strongly that people's sexual fantasy lives are metaphoric, and I am reluctant to conflate them with their attitudes toward women and sexuality. My own personal experience is that some of the fantasies I find exciting could not possibly be more different from what I like in real life. An excellent example would be women's enjoyment of rape fiction and fantasies; "bodice-ripper" romance novels sell by the millions and a great deal of more explicit material written by women can be found elsewhere. For this reason, I am reluctant to draw conclusions about a man's attitudes toward sexuality and women based on his sexual fantasy life, and am not surprised to hear that scientists have failed to establish a link between consumption of pornography and sexual violence.
Pornographic films however, do have an underlying reality. It recalls an experience I had in high school where a boy noticed my homemade bookmark with a sexy television actor and showed me his own bookmark made with a pornographic image. I was very much struck by the woman's expression; she looked like she was scrubbing toilets. I wondered than and now why he would be turned on by a woman who looks like she would rather be anywhere else than with him. Probably many of the people who consume this sort of porn simply practice a sort of wilful denial, much as I enjoy a meal in a restaurant without being troubled that almost no one who works there enjoys the work, some may even feel degraded by it, and all are only in it for the money. Many genuinely kind and peace-loving people seem to be able enjoy a good steak without thought for the tremendous amount of animal and also human suffering that was necessary to bring it to their plate.
Finally, I worry that such concerns when taken to an extreme are edging towards sexism. I often hear about the saint/whore dichotomy when it comes to attitudes about women. You seem very concerned that men may be viewing women like whores and objects, but it is also equally important to avoid the notion that women are saints. When I told a female friend I was writing to you about this subject she told me she thought I was 'very brave'. I know she would be afraid to discuss such things with someone who was not a trusted lover or trusted female friend, because she is afraid of violating these 'saintly' expectations of women and being condemned for it, perhaps even victimized. I think this sort of fear is very prevalent when it comes to women and their sexuality. Yet, I think many women would feel perfectly comfortable condemning pornography in public. I would urge you to keep these sorts of possibilities in mind when drawing conclusions about women's sexuality based on public attestations.
Yours, A
A: I never draw conclusions about women's sexuality. My works focuses on men's sexuality and the sexist nature of so much media and behavior. The focus is on men's violence and abusive behavior. As for fantasy, I think we all should ask where our fantasies come from. They don't spring out of our minds alone, but are conditioned by the culture as well.
The question is, in a non-patriarchal culture, what would sexuality look like?
Best, J
I don't wish to be contentious, but in your essay, you based your theory that a particular kind of porn was sexist partly on your conclusion about women's sexuality that they could not possibly enjoy such an act. As a feminist, of course, my instinct is to take great umbrage at the notion that my sexual fantasies and preferences spring in small or great part from male preferences imposed from without. This is my bias. But I find your question very interesting. What _would_ human sexuality look like in a non-patriarchal culture? I will have to read your work further to see how you have tackled this question. I have to admit, I am not sure how one could generate theories about human sexuality and patriarchy's effect on it without drawing conclusions about the nature of human sexuality, and I'm not sure what one could conclude about human sexuality without considering that of women and what it does and does not have in common with that of men.
At this point in my life, I have seen women behave in every way that is condemned in men. I have seen them objectify men, complain when men don't "put out" and say they are gay or dysfunctional, assume male performers who put on a sexy act are sexually available to anyone, stalk men, brag about beating up boyfriends who did them wrong, and betray men sexually and financially without an apparent qualm. Perhaps women only learn such behavior from men, but I am inclined to believe that this is simply bad human behavior and a gender-neutral sexual environment would not be all respect and loving kindness (and vanilla sex).
Thank you for your time, this has definitely been food for thought.
Yours, A
In that piece, I talked about why men find certain things sexually exciting, which is based on their view of women's sexuality. There are patterns in such things, and I observed that one pattern is that the vast majority of women do not seek out certain acts. To describe a pattern is not to contend that everyone fits the pattern.
Your description of women's behavior is consistent with trends that I've read about (such as in Ariel Levy's book and other places). Again, one question is always how culture conditions our desire. Certainly my behavior is conditioned by the culture, just as everyone's is to some degree.
Thanks for the exchange.
J
I found your post titled "Pornographic query: Is a DP inherently sexist?" while doing a search on the internet to seek out pornographic images about DP. I was particularly struck by your observation #2: "In my 48 years, I have never met a woman outside the pornography industry who has acknowledged participating in a DP or having a desire to do so."
What may interest you is that I am female and that this activity [browsing for DP porn] was suggested by a female friend who not only finds such porn arousing, but simulates this act with a single partner and vibe. I personally use DP fantasies with a partner and use positions that simulate it. It is not hard to find on the internet porn written by women for women that is DP. However, it does not surprise me that it is hard to find women who feel comfortable admitting this to a stranger. I think women's sexuality is much more closeted than men's, especially as it gets less mainstream.
The more I experience women's sexuality in the anonymity of the internet, the more I am convinced that its expression does not differ as greatly from men's as many people believe. Men like girl-on-girl, women write a tremendous amount of 'slash' or guy-on-guy and consume a great deal of gay porn. Women also write a fair bit of torture and BDSM porn, that genre that is so controversial when created and consumed by men. I think sexual expression differs much more within the sexes than between them.
Yours, A
My experience is that women's sexuality is considerably different. And it's interesting to ponder whether a pornographic culture might have something to do with the experience you describe.
Best, J
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I have now read some more of your work, and I strongly agree with your feelings about the misogyny and sexual violence. However, I also feel strongly that people's sexual fantasy lives are metaphoric, and I am reluctant to conflate them with their attitudes toward women and sexuality. My own personal experience is that some of the fantasies I find exciting could not possibly be more different from what I like in real life. An excellent example would be women's enjoyment of rape fiction and fantasies; "bodice-ripper" romance novels sell by the millions and a great deal of more explicit material written by women can be found elsewhere. For this reason, I am reluctant to draw conclusions about a man's attitudes toward sexuality and women based on his sexual fantasy life, and am not surprised to hear that scientists have failed to establish a link between consumption of pornography and sexual violence.
Pornographic films however, do have an underlying reality. It recalls an experience I had in high school where a boy noticed my homemade bookmark with a sexy television actor and showed me his own bookmark made with a pornographic image. I was very much struck by the woman's expression; she looked like she was scrubbing toilets. I wondered than and now why he would be turned on by a woman who looks like she would rather be anywhere else than with him. Probably many of the people who consume this sort of porn simply practice a sort of wilful denial, much as I enjoy a meal in a restaurant without being troubled that almost no one who works there enjoys the work, some may even feel degraded by it, and all are only in it for the money. Many genuinely kind and peace-loving people seem to be able enjoy a good steak without thought for the tremendous amount of animal and also human suffering that was necessary to bring it to their plate.
Finally, I worry that such concerns when taken to an extreme are edging towards sexism. I often hear about the saint/whore dichotomy when it comes to attitudes about women. You seem very concerned that men may be viewing women like whores and objects, but it is also equally important to avoid the notion that women are saints. When I told a female friend I was writing to you about this subject she told me she thought I was 'very brave'. I know she would be afraid to discuss such things with someone who was not a trusted lover or trusted female friend, because she is afraid of violating these 'saintly' expectations of women and being condemned for it, perhaps even victimized. I think this sort of fear is very prevalent when it comes to women and their sexuality. Yet, I think many women would feel perfectly comfortable condemning pornography in public. I would urge you to keep these sorts of possibilities in mind when drawing conclusions about women's sexuality based on public attestations.
Yours, A
A: I never draw conclusions about women's sexuality. My works focuses on men's sexuality and the sexist nature of so much media and behavior. The focus is on men's violence and abusive behavior. As for fantasy, I think we all should ask where our fantasies come from. They don't spring out of our minds alone, but are conditioned by the culture as well.
The question is, in a non-patriarchal culture, what would sexuality look like?
Best, J
I don't wish to be contentious, but in your essay, you based your theory that a particular kind of porn was sexist partly on your conclusion about women's sexuality that they could not possibly enjoy such an act. As a feminist, of course, my instinct is to take great umbrage at the notion that my sexual fantasies and preferences spring in small or great part from male preferences imposed from without. This is my bias. But I find your question very interesting. What _would_ human sexuality look like in a non-patriarchal culture? I will have to read your work further to see how you have tackled this question. I have to admit, I am not sure how one could generate theories about human sexuality and patriarchy's effect on it without drawing conclusions about the nature of human sexuality, and I'm not sure what one could conclude about human sexuality without considering that of women and what it does and does not have in common with that of men.
At this point in my life, I have seen women behave in every way that is condemned in men. I have seen them objectify men, complain when men don't "put out" and say they are gay or dysfunctional, assume male performers who put on a sexy act are sexually available to anyone, stalk men, brag about beating up boyfriends who did them wrong, and betray men sexually and financially without an apparent qualm. Perhaps women only learn such behavior from men, but I am inclined to believe that this is simply bad human behavior and a gender-neutral sexual environment would not be all respect and loving kindness (and vanilla sex).
Thank you for your time, this has definitely been food for thought.
Yours, A
In that piece, I talked about why men find certain things sexually exciting, which is based on their view of women's sexuality. There are patterns in such things, and I observed that one pattern is that the vast majority of women do not seek out certain acts. To describe a pattern is not to contend that everyone fits the pattern.
Your description of women's behavior is consistent with trends that I've read about (such as in Ariel Levy's book and other places). Again, one question is always how culture conditions our desire. Certainly my behavior is conditioned by the culture, just as everyone's is to some degree.
Thanks for the exchange.
J
