Romance Novel Nattering

[botias]

Now I'm wondering what would happen if men started demanding fair representation in the extremely female-dominated romance novel industry. The male characters in romance novels, as they stand now, exist purely to fulfill the needs of the female characters. They are always quite charismatic and extraordinary even though the female characters have a much, much greater range of possibilities. The heroes very often give up lifestyles and ways of which they were previously very fond to conform to the wants and needs of the heroine.

I honestly don't know that I would welcome changes that would make romance novels more appealing to men. They might want a ban on heroes who mysteriously adore listening to the heroine's inane chatter. Men might be rightly disgusted with the notion that the hero finds himself incapable of having deeply satisfying sex with anyone other than the heroine--since the man is inevitably so charismatic that he can bed pretty much any woman that takes his fancy, it's rather as if the poor guy has been hexed. Men might frown on plot lines where the hero chooses to scale back a career which he found challenging and rewarding simply to enable him to lavish more attention on his spouse (though the heroes always come to accept the heroine's demanding or dangerous career, understanding that 'it's part of who she is and he wouldn't want to change it'). Men might find themselves at a loss to understand or feel represented by heroes who are bored by the lithe beauties who are always flinging themselves in front of their limos, instead falling madly in lust with a woman with smallish breasts, sensible hair and 'some meat on her bones'.

Comments

[beanbeans.livejournal.com]

Men might find themselves at a loss to understand or feel represented by heroes who are bored by the lithe beauties who are always flinging themselves in front of their limos, instead falling madly in lust with a woman with smallish breasts, sensible hair and 'some meat on her bones'.

OH NOES!
*re-writes M & I book*

:P

Oh, wait, I'm targeting my-aged women. Never mind. \o/

ILU, OMG, and I love the way you think about these things. Truly, the genre is written by and large by women, for women. So yeah, it's an idealized generalization of what is expected that women want. Or what women are supposed to want.

:|

Oy, murky waters. Yikes.

Stop making me think! It's hard! *Buffy whine* :P

Hi, hihihi!

I have to go to work, but I miss you and miss chatting with you. I hope we can catch each other on IM soon. <333

[botias.livejournal.com]

Your M & I book is a thing of romance novel beauty whether you ever write more of it or not. :D I really enjoyed what I got to see of it.

Yes, as a reader I really wouldn't want to share the romance novel sandbox with men. As a writer... wow. I don't know that I would really want to write stories that I found less personally pleasing to me so that the story would be more broadly appealing. Does this lack of caring whether my male characters are realistic and satisfying to male readers mean that I am a selfish man-hating person? I mean really, does it? How would I feel if I was accused of that because of the stories I write and enjoy?

Anyway!! I am never in front of my desktop PC these days. >:( I'll have to start paying closer attention on the laptop so we can get together. :) <333

[beanbeans.livejournal.com]

Thanks, sweetie. I don't want to jinx it, but I have been having writerly thoughts lately, which makes me weepy simply at the fact that they are showing up. I'm holding onto them verrrry carefully, so as to not scare them away.

I don't think it makes you a man-hater, or selfish, no. I think what we write is fantasy and escapism, particularly since we both write fandom-based, non-published works. Although writing is relatively revelatory about one's self and one's personal belief systems. If you are truly going to write what you know, then some of YOU and your ideas about gender roles will show up. As will your fantasy about what is an ideal man/woman/relationship. But when writing fanfiction, we pretty much are indeed writing for ourselves, to suit our own desires about how we want to see someone else's characters behave. Our own little puppet shows, played out in our heads, wearing actors faces, as it were.

However, that may be a question to consider, should you want to market your story to a mass audience. Could you find a compromise, wherein you told a story that didn't make the man entirely self-sacrificing, and wherein the woman wasn't completely independent and heroic? It seems to me that layered character that was both heroic and flawed, ego-centric and generous, would be more realistic than simply writing formulaic gender stereotyped M and F characters. Not that you do that, mind you--you've quite good at writing characters with complex motivations--but I'm simply answering your hypothetical question.

I suppose you would have to consider how to make compromises both in plot line and in your character's emotional development, if you were to write with the intention of creating characters who are appealing to both men and women, and not just to serve your own writing fantasies. But I do think it's possible to do both.

Whew!

In conclusion, writing is HARD, yo. :P
But you are an excellent writer, my dear, and asking questions like these, considering them while you are writing, can only make you better.

♥ ♥ ♥

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

If you can ever find it, Ed Bradley, late of 60 Minutes (CBS) once did an amazing piece on the industry of romance novels. Turns out they account for 50% of all books published (including the bible and textbooks) and are hugely female dominated.

He then went and interviewed Georgette Heyer - it was really, really funny and an eye opening look at the industry....

[botias.livejournal.com]

Yes, romance novels are a huge industry, and women are the dominant consumers of published fiction in general if I recall correctly.

I would like to see that! And it would be very interesting to see an interview with Georgette Heyer.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I would like to see that! And it would be very interesting to see an interview with Georgette Heyer

The interview was astounding. Her estate was HUGE - apparently just one of many - and she was just dripping in diamonds and older than the hills. Plus, she slobbered all over Ed B and called him "tall, dark and handsome"

It was wonderful...

[ladyofthesea.livejournal.com]

The romance genre was designed by women for women, something I think men understand enough to not bother with it. Your average guy probably won't care if the male characters in said romance books are portrayed in the ways you described, no more than I care how chicks are portrayed in an issue of Playboy. (Wanton secretary strips down on boss's desk? How original!)

I can understand wanting to make the genre equal as far as the sexes go, but I could see the effort better used in other genres. Romance novels are all formulaic; the potential to save them is next to zero.

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

Unless you are talking about category romances. They aren't any more or less formulaic than other genre like mysteries or SF/F. They might not be your cup of tea but I don't think they need to be saved.

[ladyofthesea.livejournal.com]

Probably not. They've sold well for who knows how long, and the general populace enjoys them. I'm just part of a small percentage that always hopes for something more than cliched characters, plot twists and endings.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I know who your icon is now! I just discovered Lezard/Lenneth fanfic...

I... don't know what to tell you. I guess what I get out of romance novels doesn't depend on those things, though they are essential to me in other genres. If I were to write a romance novel, I would try to subvert the cliches as much as possible without depriving the reader of what they want and expect from a romance novel which is an escapist fantasy, some drama, a happily-ever-after and generally some porn.

[ladyofthesea.livejournal.com]

Lezard is a delightfully twisted and obsessed necromancer. I love him to itty bitty pieces. :D

That's pretty much the romance novel in a nutshell. I love stories with heavy elements of love, sacrifice, etc but it all depends on how they're written, formulaic or otherwise. The best example I can come up with for this is an old vampire romance novel called 'Obsession' by Lori Herter. I liked it so much because it had a bittersweet ending. I'm also a fan of Amanda Ashley's 'Moonlight' short story. The lovers were tragic to begin with, and this was before the main character was turned into a vampire. I'll read any one of those types of stories but if the writer sacrifices good characterization for excessive sex scenes (as I discovered when attempting to read Laurell K. Hamilton's drivel) it loses my interest quickly. I guess I'm a little embittered because I've read so many awesome stories with all those elements only to be sorely disappointed in the end.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Tell me more about Lezard! He's a character in a game right? Where did the logo art come from then?

Some stories should have a bittersweet ending but don't--it's true. I loved the movie 'Pretty Woman' but the ending felt very forced and fake to me, for example. I would have been fine with them not being together at the end of the movie since it was clear they had learned a lot from each other and cared about each other.

[ladyofthesea.livejournal.com]

He's from the video game Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth and Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria. I really recommend you playing the games because there's no other way to get to know Lezard's character better. I got the picture here (http://crystal.leamonde.net/characters/pics/illust-lezard02.jpg). The website also features other images and information about the rest of the characters.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link!

The game animation looks cool, I've seen some of it on YouTube, but I don't own any of the consoles so I guess I will just have to keep getting to know him through extremely naughty Lezard/Lenneth fanfic. >:)

[botias.livejournal.com]

I meant icon art. oops!

[botias.livejournal.com]

I agree that the romance genre is designed by women for women. What inspired me to write this is that one could say that the comics industry is written by men for men and yet there are women who care very much how women are portrayed in it, and are much offended that the female characters seem formulated purely to serve the male character's story.

As someone who enjoys romances the way they are, I sincerely hope they never get saved. :) I think some editors tried in the early eighties. *shudder* I'm sure murder mystery fans and fantasy fans feel the same about their formulaic genres.

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

I think people aren't complaining so much about men and mens fantasies, but the defaults. I watch sci-fi, the default is male and male fantasies, I read comics, the default is male and male fantasies and they're consistently poor wrt female characterisation and treatment.

I don't read romances but I have read them and I hate the default assumptions there also. But it isn't the *society wide* default.

(for a female default I could subscribe to lifetime movies or whatever, but I like sci-fi and action and cop shows and not romance, so tough)

[botias.livejournal.com]

I don't know that you could argue that male defaults in entertainment are society-wide. Not when literature/fiction/movies with female defaults are such a huge and lucrative industry.

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

I really disagree. I have access to:

About 400 channels of tv.
Five channels that *everyone* with a tv gets.
About 45 channels that 75% of the population technically has access to for free, but that only 25% of people *actually* have access to.

Of the main 45ish channels that won't be exclusive to the richest people in my country, there are maybe five that target women as a demographic (all shopping). So who are the others targeting? either a)'people' or b) men or c) children.

The 'people' channels (like all media/entertainment in the UK) are overwhelmingly run by, commissioned by and otherwise produced by, men. I'd hazard a guess that so are the shopping channels.

So for womens *entertainment*, before you even GET to how bad they are or lucrative they are or what a fabulous audience there is for them, or who is producing them - you have to pay for.

The default is male. Which is fine, but it's there.

And for books (which I know are available free here) chick lit and romance are *genres*, not defaults. They sell well, but they're treated by the publishing industry as a whole as some surprising phenomenon that makes money for no reason. Still. How many romances do you think win literary prizes or are otherwise recognised as anything but cheap trash except by specialist publishers? How many will be on a schools curriculum? EVER?

And honestly, I can't stand the genre, so I go looking for books outside that and they're overwhelmingly written by men.

It's like you're saying (and if I'm wrong, correct me) that it's okay if I don't like mainstream media, because look, there's all this romance! You can buy books about shopping and sex! written by women yay!

Which to me is just not logical. Like you're asking me not to complain about women being killed in mainstream tv shows because I can go and read a book with strong female pirates who tame big husky men? because it's a lucrative genre? whut?

I don't WANT mainstream tv to be more like girly lit. I hate girly lit. I'd just like to turn on the tv and watch Supernatural, preferably with less women in fridges.

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

Or to put it another way:

I have not wandered into a mans bedroom, nosied through his knicker drawer, found his big purple dildo and said 'EWW!!' 'I don't like that you masturbate with that, it's so MALE! Please do it with this pink sparkly one instead so I can enjoy it too!'

Mainstream TV is the world, not mens private playground.

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

Considering men have everything else published and almost everything that comes out of hollywood geared to them. I couldn't care less. I wouldn't mind a shorter hero or a one with inch to pinch now and then. But I don't want my romances writen to appeal to to men. Though I do know men who read them.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't want my romances written to appeal to men either, though I know some men do read them. :)

To be fair, not everything that comes out of Hollywood is geared to men. Romantic comedies and dramas are primarily consumed by women and I think these comprise a fair portion of the industry; so do 'family films'.

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

Consumed by women but mostly produced by men though. Take the very bad novel PSILY, written by a woman, made into a film with a screenplay written by a man, and *although it was hard to find any gender politics at all* in the novel, he actually managed to remove the little there was.

It took some doing, but he did it yay. Staggering achievement.