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[botias]

I know I’m so alone here, but I went through this phase where I was kind of cranky with the writers about Spuffy in S6.  One of many such phases really.  The theme of this particular phase was: Why the hell shouldn’t Buffy have Spike for a sex toy if she’s so inclined?

So he’s a bad (bad, very bad) boy.  Of all the women in the world, Buffy would be The One who can have sex with anyone she wants without worrying about becoming a victim.  I’ve never heard anyone express the notion that a guy should avoid bad girls because they might get raped or because it could all end with their bleached bones ruining some poor hunter’s afternoon.  That ME contrived (and I do mean contrived) to make Buffy a victim anyway just tanned my hide that much more.

Spike cannot get her pregnant, he cannot give her any disease.  He is piss-poor boyfriend material for Buffy, but is it, or is it not, OK for her to have sex with someone she’s attracted to just because it feels really good?  Well, maybe it’s not OK in this case.  I mean, there’s the whole he’s in love with her thing, and the stalking, and the pointy teeth and the accompanying bloodlust.  So I haven’t a leg to stand on really.  *shrug*  But I was cranky just the same.

Comments

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

No, don't apologize. You are absolutely right. This burned me then and burns me now. Buffy is allowed to be strong and fearless and heroic just as long as she doesn't allow her sexuality free rein. It makes me crazy that this icon of girl-power is required to be a "good girl." When she strays from a very conventional description of what a good girl is, she is punished relentlessly.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I have to say that I get where they were coming from in a way. ME designed Spike in S5 to symbolize everything that Buffy was fighting not to be. Somebody pointed out recently that you could really see it in in Fool For Love, where, for example, Buffy turns her back on the charismatic demon that has offered to show her a grand good time (at the expense of the innocent) and goes home to her sick mom, whereas William does the opposite, he embraces evil in a quest for self-aggrandizement and sensuality, leaving his own sick mother to her own devices. It would violate their metaphor for Buffy to 'embrace' Spike and what he represents. He has taken Faith's place as Buffy's dark side embodied.

I think a lot of us don't just want to see our dark sides battled and reviled though. We'd like to see them tamed, brought into the light, forgiven.

[rahirah]

BtVS's central metaphor is to constantly fight to suppress your dark side, to the point of burying your entire life in a hole to get rid of it. Unfortunately, things buried in holes tend to claw their way out in far worse condition than they were when you shoved them in...

[botias.livejournal.com]

BtVS's central metaphor is to constantly fight to suppress your dark side...

I agree that repression and self-hatred are bad. I'm not sure I see where the Buffyverse was promoting it as a good idea, though. Buffy was repressing and self-hating in S6, but they didn't show it as making her happy, causing her to behave ethically, or making anyone else happy. Repressing your feelings/impulses and not acting on them are different things right? Hating yourself for having them something else again?

[rahirah]

I honestly don't know. It's one of those things where I'm pretty sure that what I see is not what Joss intended me to see. I don't think Buffy hated herself in S7--she said she didn't, and I'll take her at her word. But I don't know why she went from hating herself to not hating herself. And several times in S7 I get the impression that she hasn't so much accepted that she has a dark side which needs to be controlled as just kind of...convinces herself it doesn't exist.

Like when she tells the Shadow Men off--I get what Joss is trying to say there about how it's bad for cowardly old men to force young girls to fight their battles. But she's glossing over the fact that she already HAS that very same demon power inside her, and while it's not everything that makes up the Slayer (it would be useless without her own wit and courage) it's a big part.

And then you get to the final battle where Spike, who's been her dark side, explicitly sacrifices himself so she can go live a normal life in the sun. (And you can say that by this Spike's been brought into the light and forgiven, but he must be utterly detroyed to do so.)

[botias.livejournal.com]

But I don't know why she went from hating herself to not hating herself.

I don't know either though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kinda exposition on it in Buffy's talks with Dawn at the end of S6 that I don't remember. Maybe I'll use it as an excuse to break out the discs. :) I guess I was able to accept that Buffy might have learned something useful from all the bad stuff that happened because she repressed and concealed and hated. Not because people always learn, or learn useful things, from their mistakes, but they do sometimes. :)

But she's glossing over the fact that she already HAS that very same demon power inside her...

I'm not sure I understand the glossing over thing in this particular example. She speaks of the origin of the slayer line as if she is fully accepting of the Shadow Mens' version of events, that the source of her super powers is demonic. She specifically refers to it in calling it a rape, someone being infected with Essence o' Evil against their will; the Shadow Men's cowardice is only their motive. That Buffy will not willingly take on even more demon essence (read: become more inclined to evil/less human in the Buffyverse) for the greater power it will bring with it, doesn't seem to me to mean that she is in denial about what she already possesses.

And you can say that by this Spike's been brought into the light and forgiven, but he must be utterly detroyed to do so.

I don't think everything they had Spike do was about Buffy, or that representing Buffy's dark side was his role in S7. I think his sacrifice had more to do with him having just finished up a century long party at the expense of the innocent. Ooops. I feel like they both kind of followed the same arc, Buffy decided she didn't want to be the person she was in S6, and Spike ultimately decided that he didn't either. And OMG I just figured out what you meant by the burying your whole life in a hole thing. I feel just a little thick. Well, on growing up they say you can never go home again... ;)

[rahirah]

You're interpreting everything exactly as Joss intends viewers to, I think. And I can see that interpretation; it's just that, as with a ot of the last two seasons, there are niggling little things that keep me from swallowing it without question.

Buffy reacts to the Shadow Men's offer as if everything is as you describe it: Slayer power is evil, and getting more of it would be bad. But that Slayer power is bad, and causes Buffy to have more evil impulses (even if she never acts on them) than she would have if she were not a Slayer, is never established anywhere in the series.

In the place where it would make most sense to establish this, in S6, (perhaps by saying that Buffy came back to life less human or more susceptible to her inner demon in some way) we are instead led to believe that this is not a factor, that she is no less human and there is nothing supernatural influencing her actions. The second best place would have been in GID; presumably other Slayers have used the bag in the past, and this could have been used to establish that accepting the power was dangerous. But if other Slayers did use it, we're never told what happened to them.

I would be more than happy to accept that because Slayer power is demonic, it is de facto evil, and therefore causes Slayers to be at greater risk of doing evil things, and therefore more is not better. In fact, I play around with that idea a lot in my own fic. But there is no hard evidence in the series that this is true. And so I'm left wondering if in Buffy's eyes, the power she has is qualitatively different from the power she is offered and rejects, simply because she thinks of her own power as hers.

(And though this isn't directly related, I've never been comfortable with Buffy rejecting possibly dangerous power for herself at the same time she pressures Willow and Spike into embracing their own potentially dangerous sources of power regardless of the moral or practical consequences.)

I don't think Spike was primarily Buffy's dark side in S7. But I don't think old metaphors can be entirely ignored or discarded, though they may be modified and overlaid by new ones. He's more like her scapegoat, the sacrifice of the dark and strange in her life that allows her to live in peace and normality.

Spike got his own story to a greater extent than any other secondary character in the show did. But on another level, all the characters were there to work out Buffy's issues--Normal Again writ large. And I don't think it's insignificant that all the humans live and all the demons die in the last episode, even if Joss wasn't consciously thinking of it that way.

[botias.livejournal.com]

You're interpreting everything exactly as Joss intends viewers to, I think.

I'm a Whedon whore, I really am. :D

But that Slayer power is bad, and causes Buffy to have more evil impulses (even if she never acts on them) than she would have if she were not a Slayer, is never established anywhere in the series.

It's funny, my gut response to this is OMG huh? I've read it so much differently, that they've always written Buffy rather darker than the people around her. It's one of the things that isolates her. None of her human friends spend much time angsting that they are nothing more than a killer. Buffy struggles with this potential in herself throughout her arc. (And, hey, didn't you just get done convincing me that canon Buffy is dark, dark, dark, and that she fails to curb her evil impulses all the time? *g*)

I have trouble imagining Xander or Willow behaving as Buffy did in S6, or falling in so easily with Faith's thrillseeking and her 'want + take = have' bit in S2. Poor Riley's attempts at the dark side were just sad. S6 Buffy behaved toward Spike pretty much exactly as soulless demony Spike behaved toward Harmony. Harmony might be Buffy's Number 1 Fan if she only knew. :) Buffy does all these things without any additional demon influence other than her slayerness. She's not temporarily chock full of Dark Magic, hyena demons, werewolfian passions, yada, yada, cupcake.

While Buffy has rarely voiced her preferences, I've always drawn the following conclusions from canon: Buffy enjoys killing things, brutally. She likes brutal sex. She is strongly sexually attracted to hot demony types (with a penchant for good). I don't know of any other characters in the Buffyverse about which we can say the same that are not Slayers or demons/hybrids. (Yeah, I know, demon-magnet Xander. I think that's more to do with his repeated use as a damsel in distress than evidence of evil inclinations.)

(And though this isn't directly related, I've never been comfortable with Buffy rejecting possibly dangerous power for herself at the same time she pressures Willow and Spike into embracing their own potentially dangerous sources of power regardless of the moral or practical consequences.)

Oooh, excellent point. Thinking about it further though... I could argue that *rolls eyes at self* Buffy is using her dangerous demony powers, say she's running at 2000 RPM, whereas Spike and Willow are afraid to turn the engine over. How would we feel about Buffy if she spent the first half of the season refusing to use her powers to protect the ever growing number of folks depending on her because: *whiny pouty voice* she's scared of her powers, somebody might get hurt. I'm guessing we'd think she was ultra lame for wringing her hands while people were getting skewered right and left (vs. just left). So I got to hold Willow and Spike to the same standard. They only have the luxury of not using their powers and living 'cause Buffy is using hers.

all the humans live and all the demons die in the last episode

? A lot of the demons left town, the non-aggressors, and presumably lived. Joss killed all the humans he thought he could get away with, a good chunk, more than half would be my guess, of the potentials noob slayers, including some they personalized, Robin Wood was borderline, I think the human casualties have Spike and Anya outnumbered, and Anya was human when she died, besides.

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

I din't realize this was the intent on the part of ME. How do they fit S. 7 into that, do you know?

[rahirah]

I just meant that's my interpretation of their intent. God knows what Joss thinks!

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

Actually, my post was regarding what botias was saying.

And then you get to the final battle where Spike, who's been her dark side, explicitly sacrifices himself so she can go live a normal life in the sun. (And you can say that by this Spike's been brought into the light and forgiven, but he must be utterly detroyed to do so.)

What you say here is very true. It's part of the whole Whedonverse philosophy that I find hard to deal with...I'm very tired and should have been in bed long ago, so this may be less than clear, but there's a punative, dare I say Puritanical, streak in Joss's world. It's disturbing, at least to me.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I could be wrong, that's just the impression I've gotten from commentary and stuff. What aspect of S7?

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

I need to listen to the commentary on Season 5.

Re: S7, is Spike still representing Buffy's dark side? I don't think so, but what do you think he represents in S7?

[botias.livejournal.com]

I like to read writer interviews, and anything I can find that Joss says about the Buffyverse. :)

I don't think Spike is in S7. I think when ME decided to have him fight to be a man rather than a monster, a shadow, he became someone in his own right. He could have done anything with his new life, been anyone, but he chose to be a hero. I think it's terribly sad, I was devastated when he died, but it's really cool too that he chose to be the sort of person who would do that for other people. I hate to be sappy, but it kinda makes me think of the firefighters on 9/11. In a way, I think that also made his third life on Angel possible. I don't think ME would have kept unsouled or unheroic Spike around, villains and neutrals are cheap on the ground.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Didn't we all feel like that for a while in S6?

Sometimes, and especially if you've already died twice before your twenty-first birthday, you need just what you need right now. And whatever difficulties the long term could have presented, there was nothing wrong with Buffy taking it. There were a few wrong things with how she took it, sure, but she has a right to some emotional support and hot sex when a good opportunity presents itself.

It's not like there was ever really going to be a long term until the deus ex machina side effect of Chosen.

[botias.livejournal.com]

she has a right to some emotional support and hot sex when a good opportunity presents itself.

I'm not sure it's really a good opportunity though. Is a slayer having sex with a vampire like... a prison guard having sex with one of the prisoners or a judge having sex with the defendant? Kind of a conflict of interest/abuse of power issue?

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

I don't think she's supposed to be in charge of the vampires. She's supposed to slay them.

Yes, she does have a variety of reasons to spare Spike and may be faced with hard decisions if some of those reasons change. But even then she has little responsibility outside their partnership for coming to a conclusion that is fair to Spike.

She may and does kill vampires just because they're dangerous, after all.

Not so much like a jugde and a defendent as like a soldier and another opposing soldier on a battlefield.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Not so much like a jugde and a defendent as like a soldier and another opposing soldier on a battlefield.

Exactly. Don't they have rules about that in the military? Fraternizing with the enemy right? I mean, you're not even supposed to have sex with your own side because it could interfere with the performance of your duty. It just doesn't seem quite ethical to enter into a sexual relationship with somebody when it's pretty likely that you will be serving as their judge, jury and executioner at some later date.

I actually kinda thought that was part of why Buffy broke up with Spike after he showed that he couldn't 'be good'. Isn't it kind of like a cop having a sexual relationship with someone who they know is cooking meth for a living? Is it cool for the cop to break up their lab and part of their home with it based on information they obtained through their personal relationship? Is it cool for the cop not to because of the personal relationship? I'm thinking Buffy really shouldn't have been sleeping with Spike.