In the defense of Buffy's virtue

[botias]

I've been reading a bit of sincere appreciation for fic written in a more 'realistic' mode. Especially as regards Buffy's former lovers and her attitudes towards them. That's all well and good--we need more love and appreciation in the world right?--but I'm detecting a whiff, and this may be my own trembling fear and bias, of snobbery towards folks that write and appreciate something rather more fantastical, or simply something different.

It is entirely possible that Angel's penis is three inches long. Could the rampages and the whoring, before and after turning, be his choice of compensation for a perceived shortfall, rather than learning to be excellent with tongue and fingers? Is the old vamp attracted so much to virginal Buffy, who can't possibly comprehend him, precisely because of her inability to compare him to other men?

It is entirely possible that the wholesome, earnest Iowa farmboy may be just starting out on the kink continuum during his time with Buffy. Caring enough to go for the O, cosmopolitan enough to find the clit, but without seasoning, and Buffy is not exactly the one to help him out regarding other positions and hot spots.

Is it possible, perhaps, to look at Riley-Angel-bashing as satire from folks who simply are not fans? Bushies probably do not appreciate the large ears indulged in by political cartoonists with quite the same joy as blue-staters, yet I haven't seen calls for more accurate portrayal. Granted I'm probably reading in the wrong places.

I guess I'm just a real egalitarian when it comes to kink. I don't believe that any kink is not OK or somehow is an indicator of a small mind, or an over-controlling mother, or, or, OMG an underappreciation of Spike's charms.

Granted that last is a real crime.

Disclaimer: I do not endorse the practice of kinks that victimize others.

Comments

[zanthinegirl.livejournal.com]

Heh!

It is entirely possible that Angel's penis is three inches long. Could the rampages and the whoring, before and after turning, be his choice of compensation for a perceived shortfall, rather than learning to be excellent with tongue and fingers?

I certainly can't rule that out!

There's certainly something out there for everyone! Personally I'm usually not into character bashing; it's one of the things that will usually turn me off of an otherwise interesting story. I adore Spike, and strongly prefer him with Buffy, but I adore Angel too. I don't think he's right for Buffy, but that doesn't mean he's the source of all evil. Frankly I just find the story more interesting when Buffy chooses Spike in spite of the fact that Angel and Riley had good points too.

This is probably partially personal-- I've learned to flee from guys that bash their exes! Not a good sign!

[botias.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, ex-bashing is on the top ten list for 'Run Don't Walk' in RL. For some reason it just amuses me in fic most of the time, rather like a caricature. I guess I would have to qualify that to Buffy just does it in the privacy of her own mind, and/or the fic charicatures the ex or recasts them as a villain. I would be turned off by Buffy kissing and telling.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that any kink is not OK or somehow is an indicator of a small mind

Hey, what a coincidence!

Neither do I. And for once I'm not going to cave and put a disclaimer up to that effect, because hopefully it's a given.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if you thought I was accusing you of being small=minded, but it just seems like it is very easy to... consider these sorts of fics as less somehow. I think rahirah referred to such inclinations as 'shipper's disease'? I think it's easy to slip into passing judgement. I enjoy these fics too, but I myself find it easy to enjoy them on one hand and wave them off with the other sometimes.

[rahirah]

Well, it's possible (for me, anyway) to enjoy one aspect of a story and not like other aspects. To some extent it depends on whose ox is being gored; I don't like any type of character bashing much, but I will put up with it more readily in an otherwise good story if it's directed at a character who's not one of my favorites. Which, yes, is hypocritical of me. If Spike is bashed, I won't read the story; if Riley is bashed mildly, I'll grumble and won't enjoy the story as much as I otherwise might. If Riley is bashed badly--turned into a drunken abusive creep for no reason other than that the author wants to humiliate a character who dares come between her OTP--then I'll probably stop reading, because how can I trust that author to play fairly with the other characters?

It's true that the lines are different for everyone depending on who they like best; I try really hard not to bash anyone, but I've had more than one person assume that I don't like Angel, and treat him badly. Which rather distresses me, because I don't want to treat any character badly, and makes me re-think the way I write my next story. And I've read stories where I could see that the author, by their lights, was representing a character I liked fairly and accurately, but which came off to me as inaccurate and bashy. So I don't think there's a hard and fast line to be drawn between bash and non-bash--BUT there are some stories where it's pretty obvious that the author hates character X and is gunning for them.

[botias.livejournal.com]

It's hard to walk the line, I'm sure. As the writer you have a certain amount of control over the character's fates and a lot of things could go a good way or a bad way...

I think gunning for character X can be therapeutic sometimes. Buffy characters do some pretty nasty things to one another.

[rahirah]

Well, yeah...and better take out your frustration on imaginary people than real ones!

[botias.livejournal.com]

Exactly. You strive for good characterization and even treatment from the fates, for other folks, character bashing may be most of the point and serve a purpose, though sometimes it may only be to get attention, I suppose.

I'm not really 'Go you' about any character bashing, it's not my thing, but the only character I'm particularly protective of is Buffy. This will teach me to be more tolerant, I suppose. Everybody has different hot buttons, and they are fictional after all.

I do think some people don't realize it, or just see the character differently. I read a post-Chosen fic where Buffy was portrayed as self-destructive and self-centered just shy of cutting and maybe a nice drug habit. I pointed it out to the writer and they didn't see it. They felt they were accurately portraying Buffy. So... *shrug*

[rahirah]

That's what I meant about the stories that portray the character fairly by the author's lights--I can't really call them bashing because the writer just sees the character differently than I do. There's definitely a grey area.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

I apologize -- I kind of overreacted. :)

[botias.livejournal.com]

*wipes forehead* I was worried that perhaps my post was just a little too cranky... :)

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

It is entirely possible that Angel's penis is three inches long. Could the rampages and the whoring, before and after turning, be his choice of compensation for a perceived shortfall, rather than learning to be excellent with tongue and fingers? Is the old vamp attracted so much to virginal Buffy, who can't possibly comprehend him, precisely because of her inability to compare him to other men?

Well, now that you've brought it up, it just explains so much.

::blink blink::

I think I'm entirely too fond of this idea of yours, because it makes me snicker uncontrollably.

I don't know ... I don't like character bashing, but one reader's bash is another reader's gentle tease, perhaps. After all, I *am* laughing at your suggestion. Depends on how well the story is written and the overall feel of it, I suppose. I can't actually think of any I've read that did this sort of thing.

I am behind on my fic-reading though! Lots of 'em piling up! ::eeep::

[botias.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I gave someone a hee! Doesn't it explain so much? ;)

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

Not that it matters, but my view of sex between Riley and Buffy is colored by something a pettit relative told me about her very tall broad hubby. He was very sweet loving gentle guy. Sex was good but "careful" until after she had her first baby. Once the doctor gave her the go ahead again love making was less often but more anything goes. The explaination, was he saw her give birth, it convinced him she wasn't breakable. I think Riley's that sort. No matter what his head knows I think he see tiny girl when he sees Buffy and Buffy sees somebody breakable too. [at least when not under a spell]

Sex with Angel looked like everyone was having fun but hey it was once. I'll buy anything if the author sells it right. I'll even buy that Parker was good in bed. Just don't tell me that anyone's better than Spike. ;)

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

Parker?! Nooooo!

I just can't see him as being truly good in bed. Although I can see him being into pure technique just as a way to mark prowess notches in his bedpost ... possibly ... although I'm not sure why he'd ever put that much work into it, if all he cared about was getting that one-night-stand. Eeeewwwww. It's all about him, not about his partner. Yuck.

Now what you say about Riley makes very good sense to me. ::nods::

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

You'd REALLY have to sell the Parker I was joking. He was there to be bashed in cannon. To be honest character bashing fills a niche for some readers/writers I just don't like it, myself. It pulls me out of a fic when I see a character behaving in a way that he didn't on the show without a reason. I've had my stories take some very off the wall turns. But I work hard to avoid OOC and Shipper Disease. Not because of high mindedness but because I don't like reading it. For example I write a lot of Anya/Giles and Buffy/Spike but my Xander's a pretty nice guy. He's the wrong guy for Anya and sometimes a jerk to Spike. But when I'm tempted to make him the bad guy I watch The Replacement niether side was evil.

[rahirah]

I guess I've never considered character-bashing as a kink. It's just the author going "I don't like this character, so I'll portray them as one-dimensional villains who are stupid/evil/sucky in bed." I suppose you could call it a kink, but I think that's dignifying lazy writing with a status it doesn't deserve...

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

My knee jerk reaction to this post was that I'll believe anything in fic if it's sold well enough. But I can't think of single story where it is. So you're probably right about laziness.

But I do think it is a real kink some people really like it. Checking out the reviews sometimes I think writers put a character bashing warning up just to get more hits. The thing about it is that's it's like Mary Sue, it's sort of inorganic author insertion. But it's only the author's opinion not thier person.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that character bashing is not really a kink, though I think the idea that Buffy is in some way innocent of sexual pleasure is a kink.

I can't say I think it is lazy writing. The writer doesn't like the character and so they're having fun planting a few pies on their face. Perhaps they're angry at the character about some of the things the character has done. Certainly Angel has done a plenty. I can see a fic where Buffy kicks Angel's ass verbally and otherwise and finds really hot sex with someone else *cough*spike*cough* as a reaction to the way Angel emotionally rapes Buffy and tortures/murders her friends on the show.

You guys have really made me think though. I have my own sacred cows, and tend to think dark thoughts about Buffy-bashers...

[rahirah]

That's the thing--if I don't like it when someone does it to my favorite characters, I can't really say "Go you!" when someone does it to a character I don't care as much about.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Ummm.....what all you guys said....

Yeah. I agree.