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May. 13th, 2006 11:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
botiasI often read sympathy for Spike about the way others treat him without any reference as to why the Scoobies or Buffy might reasonably find him disgusting, like the fact that he is a sadist, rapist, liar, stalker, drunkard, thief and murderer.
I often read about how Spike 'fixes' broken people who then abandon him. Spike is seemingly attracted to the broken, yet another less then stellar quality and with predictably poor results, but I've not known him to fix anyone.
I encounter Spuffy fans who are actually just Spike fans. They hate, hate, hate Buffy for abusing Spike, but Spike wants her, therefore he shall have her. I've definitely gone through my own phases where I wanted to feed our heroine to the pretty vampire.
Why am I a Spike fan? Why do I ship Spuffy? Some days I'm not sure. But I have dark suspicions.
I often read about how Spike 'fixes' broken people who then abandon him. Spike is seemingly attracted to the broken, yet another less then stellar quality and with predictably poor results, but I've not known him to fix anyone.
I encounter Spuffy fans who are actually just Spike fans. They hate, hate, hate Buffy for abusing Spike, but Spike wants her, therefore he shall have her. I've definitely gone through my own phases where I wanted to feed our heroine to the pretty vampire.
Why am I a Spike fan? Why do I ship Spuffy? Some days I'm not sure. But I have dark suspicions.
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:14 am (UTC)Maybe we'll start a fandom kerfuffle!
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:27 am (UTC)Sadist? No not really... that was more Angelus. Spike enjoyed a fight, he enjoyed the THRILL but I personally wouldn't call him a sadist.
Rapist? Well it is quite probable but never given as a fact... unless of course you are counting 'the bathroom scene' which was NEVER rape... at the worst it was attempted rape but I don't even see it as that... their relationship to that point had been very violent and Buffy had consistantly said NO and then jumped his bones... I can't imagine at that point in their relationship he knew when no actually meant NO... as soon as he realised what was happening you could SEE how affected he was.
Hating Buffy? No... there are MANY times that I don't approve of her behaviour... that doesn't mean I don't understand why she behaved that way and I certainly don't hate her for it... in fact more often than not I feel sorry for her.
I think the question we have to ask isn't really WHY the Scoobies treat Spike the way theydo but more why they continue to treat HIM that way but why Angel and Anya aren't treated the same way? And why Xander who was very much responsible for taking innocent lives on the show (and Xander definitely DID try to rape Buffy in season 1) gets off scott free without so much as a slap on the wrist? Willow was held accountable for the deaths she caused but was quickly forgiven. Yes, Spike had a past... a bad one... but surely people who are 'good', once he started trying to do the right thing would, instead of telling him how disgusting he is and beating him down at every attempt would have encouraged and helped him? And he DID change, not only because of the chip... that was merely the catalyst... and it wasn't simply because he wanted to get into Buffy's pants or he would not have stuck around and helped while she was dead...
Why I love Spuffy?? Because they are perfect for each other... despite, or even because of, their flaws... because they went through so much to get to where the were when the show ended... because it wasn't the fluffy fairytale romance... because despite the fact that they were each so damaged in their own way they were so very good for each other. I could go on and on about why I love Spuffy... and it isn't JUST because it is what Spike wanted... I honestly think Spike is what Buffy needed... someone who would love her unconditionaly and would never leave her... he may not always get it right... in fact being Spike he would most like stuff up quite frequently but when it came down to it he would always be there for her and he would always love her. With or without his soul!
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:32 am (UTC)I also wonder if people don't Mary Sue him. He was the nerd who was in tears as he was rebuffed in love and now treds the line as the sexy cool rebel but who still has that nerd within so people are trying to fix him up - it's like a fictional dating agency. I think maybe some tend to over emphathise with him because of it and if your seeing yourself in someone you're probably going to exagerate any good and brush off any bad.
He was one of the worst vampires that existed, he could treat people like crap, if Xander or Buffy or anyone reacted because of what he was, what he had done in a less than glowing way I can hardly blame them.
But after saying that he was my favourite character. So there you go. And apologies again for burbling all over your journal, I'll go grab a mop.
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 04:14 pm (UTC)With Giles I don't understand in any way how the same guy who wanted Spike to assume a sacred duty of reform in S4 and wouldn't stake Spike in his own apartment would set up the assasination of S7. It's not that I think Giles is bad; it's just that I think that posession by the Fevil or brain disease is a more likely explanation of Giles' behavior than anything we have seen in his character on screen in six seasons. Occam's razor.
And Giles is the one main character who doesn't have the justification of sadist, rapist, &c available to him. His first direct encounter with Spike was the one where Spike in cooperation with Buffy saved his life. That puts a damper on the morals of scheming to kill someone for his sins.
As for Buffy, there are some moments in S6 where I think choosing to depend on someone who is trying to do good for you imposes some moral obligations independent of sadist, rapist, &c. The alley scene is not one of the places this is a problem for me between Spike and Buffy; all the moral trouble there is between Buffy and herself. I'm thinking mostly of the verbal abuse that starts after the first kiss.
And that's really not a giant thing in the long run, painful as it is to hear.
The other scoobs pretty much usually treat Spike better than he deserves.
I'm a Spuffy fan for both of them. But more for Buffy.
I think Spike is probably better off without her quite often. Especially post-GID when he doesn't need her anymore on his moral journey. I think he would be happy with an imaginary Buffy who would stop fighting how she feels about him, whether that's as close friends or romance partners. But I don't believe in my heart that that Buffy is going to show up no matter how long he waits.
Buffy, on the other hand, should have a Spike in her life. She's too eager to give up her own happiness and ignore her own needs for the mission and to keep other folks good opinion of her. A fellow who knows her better than anyone else and adores her for who she really is is an excellent match for her that he wouldn't be for someone more selfish. That he is strong enough to effectively watch her back in throughout the mission is a giant help. That he's not as strong as she is and can accept that is key to stability in Buffy's future. Too bad a good long term partnership isn't what she is willing to accept in a relationship.
Plus, they're so very cute together.
(Even in my worst moments of bad judgement, I'd not have dated either one of them myself. Ewwww.)
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Date: 2006-05-14 04:39 pm (UTC)I think that many writers have not come to terms with the evil in their *own* makeups. They have never been able to say "I cheated on my first husband, that was wrong, but it's OK." or "I made unpoular girls miserable in high school because I was afraid that if I didn't I would become them, but it's OK." No one is all good all the time but in society we're *supposed* to be. Christianity is a big teacher of not commiting the sin but not so great teaching us to on forgive ourselves after we have sinned and societies mores follow Chrisian morality more closely than many epople would like to admit.
That said...I'm puzzled by [Unknown site tag]'s impression that she over forgives Spike. I admit I haven't read her latest but the Spike in Lovingkindness and A Terrible Thing and Disenchantment and all of her other Spuffy fics is much more bad an rude than the norm in the genre.
I blame the oversimplificaction of Spike & Buffy on immaturity. The vast majority of Spuffy writers are *very* young. Once they grow up enough to have sinned and forgiven themselves they wil learn to appreciate Spike the way I think he was intended to be appreciated.
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Date: 2006-05-14 05:47 pm (UTC)Funny that about 'popular Christianity.' Because Christ Himself was very much the opposite.
But I agree that is how we see it in our culture.
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:00 pm (UTC)My Seasonal Spuffy fic asideI don't think Spike fixes broken people, if that were true Buffy and Dru would both be in much better shape. I think what he does do is see that they are broken. He even saw it in Willow. That's something the Scoobies would ignore in each other. In fic this perception can be the first step to making things better. That's what people need from from fic. I love bad rude Spike but I'm an old school redemptionist. In my mind, it's himself Spike really works the hardest to fix. Even when he was fixing to be the Big Bad.
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:02 pm (UTC)Liar? It was never his forte... in fact as far as evil vampires go he's a pretty poor liar.
HARMONY: What are you thinking?
SPIKE: All about you, baby.
HARMONY: Aww. You're my little lamb.
Canon!Spike lies at will though he generally lets loose with the truth since it creates more pain and chaos. He's often a bad liar for comic effect, with the Scoobies generally being too self-absorbed to notice.
Rapist? Well it is quite probable but never given as a fact...
I so much do not want Spike to be a rapist. I want him to have some kind of line in the sand there. However, he holds a broken bottle to Willow's throat and threatens her with rape in season 3, intimates that he has raped 'girls Dawn's age' in season 7, and has a jovial attitude towards what he thinks is Angelus raping one of their victims in AtS Season 5. I have to conclude that Mutant Enemy intends for Spike to be considered a rapist aside from the graphic on-screen AR. :( I sympathize with Spike, which is saying something considering how I feel about rape, but I think that he was fully aware that Buffy emphatically did not want to have sex with him there on that bathroom floor, but was going ahead anyway for his own twisted purposes. That their entire relationship was unhealthy in that way is true, with stalkery Spike not taking no for an answer like a good, healthy person would, and Buffy saying no because she really does know better and then doing something else because she is in a bad place. To me, this pattern of Spike pursuing sex with Buffy even though he knows that part of her is always unwilling supports that what happened in the bathroom was rape, and not just miscommunication.
but surely people who are 'good', once he started trying to do the right thing would, instead of telling him how disgusting he is and beating him down at every attempt would have encouraged and helped him?
A lot of people share this thought, myself included. I don't like the Scoobies when they treat Spike this way. It's not the heroic thing to do. But Spike has caused so much terrible grief and suffering that it's hard to feel like it's such a crime when the Scoobies hurt his wittle feelings by refusing to forgive and forget. Spike is not reformable without a soul within the parameters of the Buffyverse and the Scoobies are wise to never forget it.
I love Spuffy too, for all the reasons you mentioned. But I'm definitely of two minds about it. For example, I love it that Spike loves Buffy unconditionally and will never leave her, but on the other hand, how much fun is canon!Spike to have around really? That's why I like fanfic so much, I can have my Spike and like him too.
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:13 pm (UTC)Tell me about it, once I start looking objectively at Spike and canon Spuffy, I feel pretty much unclean. I think reading fanfic does help to 'heal the wound' so to speak. There I generally find a Spike that I can feel more comfortable empathising with or wishing on a girl. And I agree with you about the Mary Sue thing. Spike is the ultimate underdog, rejected even by the underdogs. We want to see him make good whether he deserves it or not.
Welcome to my journal! I'm not territorial about it.
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:41 pm (UTC)There's some logic there, Giles actually viewed Spike as a threat in S7, and probably found the idea of seeing a threat that others were missing very attractive, whereas he considered him relatively harmless post-chip. The sacred duty thing might have been some writer's brain fart. They tap dance as fast as they can.
I go back and forth. Sometimes I think Buffy would be the fortunate one, and sometimes I think Spike would be. He's no prize, and good mates for him are scarce on the ground too (maybe less so since the world is full of slayers now). Demons are too evil, and humans are too fragile.
Generally, I've come to the conclusion that there is no home for me in canon re: Spuffy. They didn't have anything worth having pre-S7, and they were just getting off the ground when the ground fell in at the end of S7. Then, with Spike not telling her he was alive... even friends don't let friends think the other is dead. I can only conclude that he no longer wanted to be with her, and even that he was rather bitter and wanted her to be hurt.
They are soo cute together. With you about the not dating them though. I much prefer to let them do it for me. :)
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Date: 2006-05-14 07:44 pm (UTC)I like that. You're absolutely right.
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:28 pm (UTC)LOL.. I didn't say Spike didn't lie... just that he was bad at it... Harmony is as thick as two short planks, lying to her doesn't require a great deal of skil. Spike lied regularly... but then so did most of the characters on the show... the others were just much better at it than he was.
As I said that Spike is a rapist is probable... and I am 100% certain he would have witnessed and actively encouraged it during his time with The Scourge... I think, however, that we shall have to agree to disagree about the bathroom scene because I definitely don't believe he was aware of what he was doing, and once he realised he was horrified. As for Spike pursuing Buffy for sex I don't see that either.. YES he wanted sex with her but he wanted considerably more from her and sex was all she was willing to give. As we see in 'Gone'.
We were never given any evidence of Anya having a soul... simply that she lost her powers and was stuck in human form... that doesn't mean she has a soul and yet the things she did in the tenure as a Vengeance demon were brushed by the wayside.
Again I don't have a problem with Spike being held accountable for his numerous past deeds, simply with the fact that others aren't! And also with the fact that once he wanted to become something better, which face it after 120 years of doing as you pleased and not having to know or care about what was the right thing to do wasn't easy, he was given no encouragement or guidance.
Angel with his precious sould locked Darla and Dru in with all those lawyers. Hitler had a soul... the men who abuse, rape and kill people around the world every day have souls... The soul isn't a mark of redeemability... it is a mark of humanity... and in the Scoobies rather black and white view of the world human=good demon=bad.
It amazes me, though, that when Buffy was dead Spike was considered to be safe and trustworthy enough to look after Dawn... if they truly believed he was evil, untrustworthy and irredeemable they would not have left him to look after a child. They also seemed to have developed a perfectly good working relationship with him over the summer that Buffywas in heaven... it is only once Buffy is back on the scene that they choose to rememer that he is evil, dangerous and untrustworthy.
Interesting discussion... anyway... must dash or I will be late LOL.
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:51 pm (UTC)In Selfless, D'Hoffryn, who should know, refers to "The life and soul of a vengence demon." So she had a soul all the way through her eleven centuries.
I don't think the canon scoobs have such a black and white view of the world, really. They deal with quite a few shades of gray. Spike is just not that nice a person to anyone but Buffy, Dawn, Joyce, Fred, Anya, and Gunn. He's pretty nasty to Wesley and Xander.
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Date: 2006-05-14 08:54 pm (UTC)The writers say this but then we have S5 and S6 as they actually played out.
Out of some misguided sense of the uniqueness of Angel this is the ME line, but it is not what the text says.
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Date: 2006-05-14 09:09 pm (UTC)I liked 'em best between Bargaining and Wrecked. Sure they were both in tough places, but they were building a nice mutual support system. With potholes.
they were just getting off the ground when the ground fell in at the end of S7.
I don't really see that anymore. Seems like wishful thinking by spuffies. Stupid Vampire (http://owenthurman.livejournal.com/3475.html#cutid1).
Then, with Spike not telling her he was alive... even friends don't let friends think the other is dead. I can only conclude that he no longer wanted to be with her, and even that he was rather bitter and wanted her to be hurt.
I thought he was afraid that if he saw her he'd chase her just to be near. And he really doesn't want to be chasing her anymore. That seemed pretty clear in S7.
I notice that he talked about going after Buffy twice and both times he did it to rile up Angel, but neither time did he really try to do it. And neither of them really tried to see Buffy in TGiQ. I can only conclude that Spike likes to needle Angel but really, really doesn't want to be with her.
But I think he wished her well, in the sense that he didn't wish her any specific harm. I can't imagine that he wanted her hurt.
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Date: 2006-05-14 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-14 11:07 pm (UTC)Might very well have been, they played it very ambiguously and I can see it both ways.
I thought he was afraid that if he saw her he'd chase her just to be near. And he really doesn't want to be chasing her anymore. That seemed pretty clear in S7.
Seems like he proved in S7 that he could be near her without chasing her and thank goodness for it. Stalking is so wrong. Yay, new improved Spike. Obviously real life factors made it impossible for the writers to have him go after her, though I doubt they would have had him do so even if they could.
I can't imagine that he wanted her hurt.
Maybe guys just don't get this ;) but when a girl says she loves him and then he doesn't call, and it turns out that he didn't have this really good excuse of being DEAD, it hurts. He had to know it was going to get back to her sooner or later. That and the whole grief being the worst of human experience thing.
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Date: 2006-05-14 11:13 pm (UTC)Buffyverse canon vampires did restrain themselves and do good. Demons more so. So I can't really match that interpretation with the text.
Angel, of course, was considered uniquely bad even before the whole souling operation so the example of his gaining and losing the soul is a special case not applicable to other vampires. Which only makes it harded to suss out what a soul does.
The soul seems like a vague Freudian-style aspect of personality sometimes. I think that's why the difference between the soul and the chip is interesting. The chip, of course, would be a Behaviorist analog of the soul. Maybe that's one of the places Maggie's research was going.
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Date: 2006-05-14 11:25 pm (UTC)This is probably very true. I don't think that
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Date: 2006-05-14 11:59 pm (UTC)I always thought the souls of those who become vengeance demons are relinquished, perhaps to D'Hoffryn, in exchange for the immortality, powers, etc. Certainly, the carnage and lack of conscience seems consistant with other unsouled types. That D'Hoffryn was in a position to bargain for Anya's life and soul doesn't mean that she was the possessor, actually it seems to mean the opposite.
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Date: 2006-05-15 12:43 am (UTC)Seldom do any of the humans either. If you are suggesting that Harmony at WR&H or Spike between S5 and S6 are motivated solely selfishly then your standards for selfishness would drag in all the humans on the show except Buffy.
What I wrote about the soul-having vs. not is based on what I've heard Joss say his intentions were
Yes, I think he did say so.
But now that the show is over, Joss really has no more authority to say what it means than any random man on the street. There is the text and that is all there is. Whatever meaning there is is in the text.
And the text doesn't argue that vampires cannot reform unless they get souls.
...souls of those who become vengeance...
Taking the life and soul of the vengence demon was done as a choice by Anya. You have to wank pretty far out to suggest that means anything other than that vengence demons have souls more or less like humans. D'Hoffryn selects humans who are already willing to hurt others over vengence (Selfless, Something Blue) so losing the soul should not be important to do the job.
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Date: 2006-05-15 01:25 am (UTC)*shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly the text seems to argue that you shouldn't hold your breath or date them. I'm pretty practical, that's what matters to me.
Easy on the accusations of wanking! I don't remember the episode all that well. I have to say that if Anya was doing that stuff while possessing the maximum conscience that she will ever possess, than she qualifies as one scary lady. :)
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Date: 2006-05-15 02:00 am (UTC)Pretty bad odds there even with the souls. Humans are enough trouble.
if Anya was doing that stuff while...
One of the joys of Selfless was that all the supposed demony and ex-demony behaviors of Anya were already present her first time around as a human.
Easy on the accusations of wanking
Sorry. Didn't mean to be mean.
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Date: 2006-05-15 03:30 am (UTC)Yeah, I sympathise. One thing I've noted that in the support of Spike there's always indepth analysis on his good points taking the best light possible, juxtaposed with a very superficial analysis on other characters in the worst light possible as a way of making him out to be the good guy. He wasn't a good guy, he was a vampire, and there seems to be a push to see him as the normal guy with a heart of gold from the wrong side of the tracks who just needs the love of a good woman to see him right. Which looking at the logic of the Buffyverse and what played out pre-soul just doesn't hold water for me.
Still love the character to bits, but he sure as hell was never a fluffy bunny pre or post soul and the poet that stood there in the alley crying over unrequited love ended up doing things that awed even other vampires. And fluffy bunnies don't get that kind of rep. :) Giles, Xander and co were wise to keep him at arms length and unfortunately I think Buffy forgot what he was and let her guard down.
I wonder if I end up being too harsh on the character because people keep giving him the get out of jail card, but then I think, nah. :D
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Date: 2006-05-15 04:13 am (UTC)Giles, Xander and co were wise to keep him at arms length and unfortunately I think Buffy forgot what he was and let her guard down.
Certainly ME had her paying the price. To give credit, Buffy always made a halfway effort to hold him at a distance, but halfway just didn't cut it.
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Date: 2006-05-15 04:16 am (UTC)Sorry. Didn't mean to be mean.
I've called off the hit men. ;)
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Date: 2006-05-15 04:48 am (UTC)Sure the focus of the fixation (from adoration to fear) changed and the radical politics changed (gift economy to commmunism later finally to capitalism) but the underlying Anya was the same.
And she talks too openly about sex and takes everything so literally that people find it offputting right from the start. It's funny in reference to the scoobs (and viewers) long running assumption that all those quirks are fallout from her demony days.
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Date: 2006-05-15 10:02 pm (UTC)I agree that he was ashamed and horrified. But when he got back to his crypt he was as bothered by the fact that he had stopped as he was by what he had tried to do. Great progress for a vampire, but... It seemed like there was still a pretty sizable part of him that thought rape was the thing to do sometimes. It's hard, because JM was completely horrified according to his interviews. A lot of times it seems like his performance contradicts the dialog. On the upside, wanting to vanquish that evil side of himself, and to no longer be of two minds, is what made Spike get a soul. When I said 'pursuing for sex' I meant that he was pressing for a sexual relationship with her, not that all he wanted was sex. He clearly loved her and wanted her to love him back.
From what I can tell, in the Buffyverse, vampires may try to behave themselves for various reasons, but the demon inside them will eventually show itself. Kind of like having a tiger for a pet, it may love you in its tiger way, but it's still a tiger. I think this is what the Scoobies are trying to keep in mind when they don't leap whole-heartedly on the redemption bandwagon. They don't believe it is possible to turn a vampire into someone who won't eventually behave in a demony fashion with tragic results.
The Dawn thing is interesting. I know Marti Noxon said in commentary that she wished the writer of that episode(s) hadn't gone there 'cause it muddied things so much. I don't think the Scoobies would have trusted him with 'a child', but apparently he won them over to the point where they didn't believe he would hurt Dawn. I think they were right about that, and I don't think he would have ever hurt or tried to rape Buffy if she'd been nice to him. But I don't think Buffy's treatment of him justified what he tried to do. Two wrongs and all that. Sometimes I wondered when Buffy was going to go to Africa and get a soul...
I was surprised too and dismayed at how they kicked him to the curb after Buffy returned and he was no longer needed. When I think back at how he interacted with them though, the snark and stuff? I thought that was funny, but maybe that's not what they wanted to come home to after a long day.
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Date: 2006-05-16 12:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 12:44 am (UTC)Ah..ok... I stand corrected! lol. I didn't remember... or possibly didn't notice that.. *shrugs* The point is, however that she DID maim, murder and mutilate for a over thousand years and yet was never really held accountable for any of it.
Having only ever been a sporadic watcher of ATS I can't comment on Spike's treatment of Wesley... but Xander is a prat. And no I am not simply referring to his treatment of Spike... he is just a git full stop! The way he treats Anya is disgusting, he tried to rape Buffy and then pulled the 'I don't remember' crap... he is a murderer--not only through the stupidity of messing with things he SHOULD have known better than to mess with but when he KNEW that the demone he had summoned was killing people he continued to keep quiet and not admit what he had done... he let Buffy nearly die because of it... let Dawn almost e taken away... all because he didn't have the balls to stand up and say i did it until he given no other choice. I fail to understand why anyone was ever nice to Xander or why he constantly got away with the things he said and did and was NEVER held accountable.
Gah... stepping down off soap box... as you can tell I have little time or liking for Xander.
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Date: 2006-05-16 01:16 am (UTC)Sometimes I think Joss is this incredible genius who plotted out seven seasons of this amazing show, knowing where he was going all along - and then I remember that it was written on the fly, by mulitple people and was full of inconsistencies. Which is what makes it such a rich mine for fanfic writers. You can prove just about any point you want about any character if you just ferret out the right episode or arc. Someone asked (on JM's site where they have this new Q and A thing, for which he supposedly actually answers himself) what was the hardest thing about playing Spike and he said that when the writers wanted a Big Bad, he had to be evil incarnate, when they wanted a wacky neighbor, he had to be funny, when they wanted alover- they turned to Spike again. And when they needed a hero to sacrifice....So for him, the hardest thing was to reconcile all these different Spikes into one character. And it is what gives us the freedom to write a Spike the way we want to see him and call it "canon". He was a bit of everything at one time or another.
I've come to the conclusion that there is no home for me in canon re: Spuffy. They didn't have anything worth having pre-S7, and they were just getting off the ground when the ground fell in at the end of S7. Then, with Spike not telling her he was alive... even friends don't let friends think the other is dead.
I think they had mutual understand, trust and perhaps a budding friendship at the end of season V; I think the beginning of season VI built on that budding friendship in the sense that Buffy trusted him with her secret and felt comfortable around him, even much of the sex shown on the screen was playful and no where near as angsty as what is generally written in fan fic. She used him, for sure; but as she got her feet back under her, she was able to end it - even though she recognized not only the pain she was causing him, but the fact that it wasn't as easy for her to walk away as she had expected. Season VII was about rebuilding the trust and friendship, culminating in the possible awakening of a genuine romantic relationship. That Spike wouldn't go to her in AtV is as much due to the unavailabilty of SMG as to Joss's lack of willingness to cave to either camp (Spuffy/Bangel). His reasons were pretty thin, but argument can be made that the soul and the fiery death may have madeSpike perhaps just a bit less "Love's Bitch" and bit more willing to see what he could do with his new chance at unlife before running after Buffy. His not realizing how she would be grieving is probably another example of his life-long habit of making bad decisions about women, especially Buffy. Doing the wrong thing for what seem like the right reasons. LOL So Spike.
And I have rambled on much too long- my apologies for taking up your space!
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Date: 2006-05-16 01:19 am (UTC)I don't buy into the all demons are dangerous and evil line... sorry... There is no evidence of Clem being evil or a threat to anyone (besides kittens) so if 'demons' were evil and unable to be trusted then surely Clem would have been dangerous? The reason vampires are 'evil' is they live off blood... more specifically human blood... to them humans are food... just like to us cattle are... does that make us evil? We as individuals can choose not to eat meat... A vampire (being an intelligent, sentient being with free will) is able to choose not to drink from humans... they don't need a soul to make that choice and thus no longer be dangerous. The lack of soul and thus lack of conscience simply makes it a choice that is MUCH less likely to be made.
Well from what David Fury said in Melbourne last year the writers were pretty much divided into the Spuffy supporters and the non-Spuffy... that had a tendency to make for inconsistencies I suppose... Marti Noxton from what I have read etc was anti-Spuffy and to a large extent anti-Spike..so I imagine she would say something like that... but it is only her opinion and I imagine David Fury would give you a different one. lol.
Again, however, my point that Spike's treatment was inconsistent with the way OTHERS were treated seems to have been missed... Anya killed, maimed and mutilated for over a thousand years... Xander tried to rape Buffy, he killed people by summoning Sweet and then continued to allow people to die by not admitting to it when he found out people were dying... Willow tried to destroy the world... Angel killed Jenny Calendar and also tried to destroy the world... etc, etc, etc... they ALL did things at some stage that resulted in death or suffering for people... but were quickly forgiven and allowed back into the fold... That is my only objection to how Spike is treated once he TRIES to do the right thing... not that he didn't do things to deserve to be treated badly... but that his treatment was inconsistent with how others were treated.
maybe that's not what they wanted to come home to after a long day I'd say it was more that they had the slayer back.. they no longer needed him for 'muscle'.
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Date: 2006-05-16 01:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 01:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 01:37 am (UTC)But it was suggested many times on AtS that the soul was insufficent for atonement. And that redemption for the crimes of Angel or Spike might be beyond the realm of the possible. Also that there is a reason to struggle for good even if redemption is not possible, which is something Angel often forgets in his darker moments.
Then various Shanshu nonsense was offered to us. Lucky for anyone who wants the shows to make any kind of sense nothing ever came of the Shanshu.
Over on BtVS redemption was never an issue, though, so it's a bit odd that it would drive such a majot plot point for just one character.
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Date: 2006-05-16 01:40 am (UTC)I'm hardly the first or brightest to notice this, but what's with the suffering and atonement thing? If vampires behave as they do because they don't have a concience to counteract their lust for blood and violence, how can they be held responsible for their actions if each and every one of us, if turned, would do the same? Wouldn't an ensouled vampire would be a rescued victim rather than a criminal who suddenly has the means to atone? Seems like, when they made Spike a character and not just an object, they opened up a big rift in their space-time continuum.
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Date: 2006-05-16 02:00 am (UTC)More inconsistencies - we have most vamps that are eating machines, and the then the occasional one with personality, self-control and depth. "Hello? Writers? Can we reach a consensus here?" :-)
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Date: 2006-05-16 02:04 am (UTC)Actually, most of the time the whole soul/atonement/redemtion thing makes me tired. Apparently it was important to the writers or to Joss at least from time to time. Which is very shallow of me, as the whole reason the shows worked so well is that the heroes were flawed (big time flawed!)and they were working toward being less flawed.
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Date: 2006-05-16 02:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-16 09:42 pm (UTC)I feel like a bit of a weenie, but for me the kitten eating is enough to accrue evil status. I know they treat it comicly on Buffy, but I really think they mean something by it. If I had a neighbor, and he was goofy and cute, and liked to watch Knight Rider marathons, but he could also pick up a kitten and hear its frightened little cries and then eat it... I think I would give greater weight to the kitten eating as an indicator of his character. I haven't personally found that being fun-loving and personable says anything at all about whether a person is evil or not, but how they behave towards things that are smaller and weaker does.
The reason vampires are 'evil' is they live off blood... more specifically human blood... to them humans are food... just like to us cattle are... does that make us evil?
I find this to be an excellent point. Buffy slays vampires and then eats her Double Meat Special (which turns out not to be so meaty, but that's by the by.) I became a vegetarian about 11 years ago because well, yeah, I think it just might be evil. Certainly the way most food animals in the United States are treated during rearing and slaughter qualifies as evil in my book. Now I'm having fun imagining the one cow in all the world smart enough to fight the humans... :D
Buffy actually says that Spike is back in the fold in S7 and Andrew is not, because Spike didn't have free will when he was evil and Andrew did. If Spike had free will when he snapped that high school teacher's neck just to hear it crack... heck, if he could do that to a cow, I couldn't ship him at all. I have a hard enough time anyway, obviously. :)
I heard that too, about the writers being divided and having long
fightsdiscussions over the fate of Spike and Spuffy. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall.Again, however, my point that Spike's treatment was inconsistent with the way OTHERS were treated seems to have been missed...
I didn't miss it, it's just that I thought it was true to an extent and it seemed really complicated to think about and I was lazy. :) The show can certainly be inconsistant, the writers definitely seemed to value a good joke over maintaining the integrity of the verse. When they made Sweet Xander's fault, I think it was mostly for the joke about Sweet not wanting Xander for his queen.
In general, I think it was consistant that entities with souls/free will are held responsible and punished for evil deeds against humans, and entities that don't have souls/free will are not held responsible or punished, but may be slain if it's necessary to preserve human safety. So no, they shouldn't have been mean to Spike for being what he was, but I think very few people would be far enough along the Buddha path, so to speak, to be neutral towards such a being, still bragging of his evil deeds, abetting others in evil when he can, and expressing every intention of doing more if he was able, even after he started changing his tune, which he only did to Buffy. I think he would rather have been dust than not be the Big Bad in front of most anyone else.
When Spike became souled, Buffy for sure and Xander grudgingly (Willow neutral?) gave him a chance to prove that he was no longer evil, as the Scoobies did with Anya (and perhaps it was pretty risky, even unwise, on both counts; Anya did fall back to her evil ways at the first major setback). Was Angel ever accepted back into the fold by the Scoobies? Was he ever in the fold? I thought they retained a suspicion and even a hatred of him, and Buffy took some deserved flack for seeing him on the down-low.
It's true that the Scoobies all did evil things in moments of weakness, but generally they knew it was wrong, sometimes managing to stop themselves before harm was done, suffered regret and consequences, and tried not to do it again. I think those are the things that separate the Scoobies when they do evil from the demons when they do. From commentary, I understand that Spike was supposed to be considered a fluke because he had retained some small sense of right and wrong, perhaps because he had been made from such a good man.
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Date: 2006-05-17 12:19 pm (UTC)I often read sympathy for Spike about the way others treat him without any reference as to why the Scoobies or Buffy might reasonably find him disgusting, like the fact that he is a sadist, rapist, liar, stalker, drunkard, thief and murderer.
I remember people's reactons when Spike went over to Angel and how everyone felt that FINALLY Spike had been accepted by good people and got away from those mean and awful Scoobs. Aside from Angel, no one had even MET Spike and none of them had ever, you know, been threatened, tortured, duped, or toyded with by Spike. The Scoobies, from the get-go, viewed him as a threat because he WAS. By the time Spike showed up in LA, he had a soul, a chip, saved the world a couple times, fell in love with Buffy, earned his redemptions(IMO), and Angel was grudgingly accepting him. Hm. Maybe that's why they may have treated him better. Though, I sitll don't buy them being his best buddies. Fred was the closest to a real friend and that really falls back on the fact that Spike is the type that has women friends more often than men.
Spike is seemingly attracted to the broken, yet another less then stellar quality and with predictably poor results, but I've not known him to fix anyone.
No, not fix. I do think he can provide a comfort. I do think he was a supreme comfort for Dawn after Buffy died and I do think that he was a comfort for Buffy, especially when she first came back. But I don't think he fixed anyone. I honestly don't like the idea of "fixing" someone, as in fanfic, it's often Spike fixing Buffy. I like the idea of them helping heal one another, getitng over this and that with one another, but Buffy doesn't need Spike to fix her.
I encounter Spuffy fans who are actually just Spike fans. They hate, hate, hate Buffy for abusing Spike, but Spike wants her, therefore he shall have her.
And some are well-known, talented authors too. And...it tires me. I've seen it in Spuffy fic contests and I almost resented it more there. Because when i go read something that is supposed to celebrate the couple, and it's all about how Buffy should be grovelling at Spike's feet for allowing her in his sublime presence, I gag a bit. For me, I can't love a couple unless i like both characters in it. I'm not saying Buffy wasn't abusive towards Spike, but it's those rose-colored glasses that others have on that Spike was never abusive towards Buffy that bugs me. That the demise or pain of the relationship falls on Buffy only. I don't get that. And what results are fics with Spike love with a very thinly veiled amount of Buffy hate and me wondering why i bothered. In the end, they had a fucked up relationship but it was not one's fault over the other.
For me, I don't think i can say definitively why I ship Spuffy or why I love Spike. Spike is a multilayered character, someone who came back each season with a new layer showing. I lvoed that. I loved how we learned more nad more about him. I loved how he changed and developed and showed exactly how he could. And...I loved Buffy for all those reasons as well. When they got together, despite all the pain, there was a certain synchronicity that I felt about the pairing. I found them to be well-matched. And i don't think there was anyone else who could bring the worst and the best that much out of each other, which of course was both something wonderful and something not so wonderful. I am one of those fans of season 7. I am one of those fans that saw a true healing and catharsis between the two characters during that time. And I guess that's why I love fic post-Chosen and post-NFA. Because that possibility was there, if, you know, Spike hadn't been burned up into the sinking hole of the hellmouth.
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Date: 2006-05-18 05:12 am (UTC)But then again, Wesley was totally mancrushing on Angel, so anything he did or said to Spike was coloured in that.
And the nastiness to Xander... Xander gave as good as he got, worse even...
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Date: 2006-05-18 05:21 am (UTC)Whenever I hear about that argument, I think about people raising rabbits or turkeys or whatever. Who take that animal in their homes, let their children play with it and then when it's fat enough, butcher and eat it anyway.
Yes we see kittens as pets, but that doesn't mean that demons have to.
Just look at how cute and sweet a calf is, yet people have no problem whatsoever butchering it.
Eating a kitten does not make a creature evil.
In general, I think it was consistant that entities with souls/free will are held responsible and punished for evil deeds against humans, and entities that don't have souls/free will are not held responsible or punished, but may be slain if it's necessary to preserve human safety. So no, they shouldn't have been mean to Spike for being what he was, but I think very few people would be far enough along the Buddha path, so to speak, to be neutral towards such a being, still bragging of his evil deeds, abetting others in evil when he can, and expressing every intention of doing more if he was able, even after he started changing his tune, which he only did to Buffy. I think he would rather have been dust than not be the Big Bad in front of most anyone else.
Yet they had no problem accepting the same kind of behavior from Anya, who was constantly talking about her glory days as a vengeance demon. But of course, they don't remember knowing anyone she hurt personally.
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Date: 2006-05-18 07:17 am (UTC)I don't believe it is inethical necessarily to raise an animal with care, even with love, and then as humanely as possible, kill it for food or hide or even for thrill, it hardly matters to the animal what utility you are making of its death. It's a devil's bargain, but not an unfair one. But I think doing so reflects the worst of what we are, as the Buffyverse demons are meant to, and not the best. To my mind, the human ability, even propensity, to do harm to other other thinking feeling species and indeed other variations of our own species, without feeling equal horror is something to be fought, and not utilized or encouraged. It is the root of our most unspeakable evils.
Yet they had no problem accepting the same kind of behavior from Anya.
Spike's entire identity was pretty much about doing harm, causing pain, drinking, indulging obsession and killing. I don't think he was capable of living safely among humans even with the best intentions. Anya was clearly not remorseful about her demon past, but as a human seemed to be both willing and capable of living a constructive life.
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Date: 2006-05-18 07:27 am (UTC)That's what I really like about them is that their journeys mirrored each other. The both fought their demons and won. Buffy could have kept being abusive and depressed but she didn't, Spike could have kept being abusive and ammoral, but he didn't. I really wanted them to come to rest in the same place together as well.
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Date: 2006-05-19 06:00 pm (UTC)I don't really think of this as my space. It's more like an empty warehouse that I stumbled onto and I'm throwing a Buffy convention in it until somebody figures it and kicks me out. :)