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[botias]

I often read sympathy for Spike about the way others treat him without any reference as to why the Scoobies or Buffy might reasonably find him disgusting, like the fact that he is a sadist, rapist, liar, stalker, drunkard, thief and murderer.

I often read about how Spike 'fixes' broken people who then abandon him. Spike is seemingly attracted to the broken, yet another less then stellar quality and with predictably poor results, but I've not known him to fix anyone.

I encounter Spuffy fans who are actually just Spike fans. They hate, hate, hate Buffy for abusing Spike, but Spike wants her, therefore he shall have her. I've definitely gone through my own phases where I wanted to feed our heroine to the pretty vampire.

Why am I a Spike fan? Why do I ship Spuffy? Some days I'm not sure. But I have dark suspicions.

Comments

[botias.livejournal.com]

I don't know. What I wrote about the soul-having vs. not is based on what I've heard Joss say his intentions were. Though my memory and interpretation can certainly be flawed. I don't recall vampires doing good or restraining themselves from evil except where it would ultimately gratify themselves or preserve them from destruction or suffering. When Spike spares Dawn and Buffy suffering, he says himself it is because he is attached to them and suffers when they do.

I always thought the souls of those who become vengeance demons are relinquished, perhaps to D'Hoffryn, in exchange for the immortality, powers, etc. Certainly, the carnage and lack of conscience seems consistant with other unsouled types. That D'Hoffryn was in a position to bargain for Anya's life and soul doesn't mean that she was the possessor, actually it seems to mean the opposite.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

I don't recall vampires doing good or restraining themselves from evil except where it would ultimately gratify themselves or preserve them

Seldom do any of the humans either. If you are suggesting that Harmony at WR&H or Spike between S5 and S6 are motivated solely selfishly then your standards for selfishness would drag in all the humans on the show except Buffy.

What I wrote about the soul-having vs. not is based on what I've heard Joss say his intentions were

Yes, I think he did say so.

But now that the show is over, Joss really has no more authority to say what it means than any random man on the street. There is the text and that is all there is. Whatever meaning there is is in the text.

And the text doesn't argue that vampires cannot reform unless they get souls.

...souls of those who become vengeance...

Taking the life and soul of the vengence demon was done as a choice by Anya. You have to wank pretty far out to suggest that means anything other than that vengence demons have souls more or less like humans. D'Hoffryn selects humans who are already willing to hurt others over vengence (Selfless, Something Blue) so losing the soul should not be important to do the job.

[botias.livejournal.com]

the text doesn't argue that vampires cannot reform unless they get souls

*shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly the text seems to argue that you shouldn't hold your breath or date them. I'm pretty practical, that's what matters to me.

Easy on the accusations of wanking! I don't remember the episode all that well. I have to say that if Anya was doing that stuff while possessing the maximum conscience that she will ever possess, than she qualifies as one scary lady. :)

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Certainly the text seems to argue that you shouldn't hold your breath or date them.

Pretty bad odds there even with the souls. Humans are enough trouble.

if Anya was doing that stuff while...

One of the joys of Selfless was that all the supposed demony and ex-demony behaviors of Anya were already present her first time around as a human.

Easy on the accusations of wanking

Sorry. Didn't mean to be mean.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I don't know, didn't they have human Anya loving bunnies to bits and talking about helping her neighbors without receiving goods and services in return?

Sorry. Didn't mean to be mean.

I've called off the hit men. ;)

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Anya had her bunny fixation (breding dozens of them) and her political-economic radicalism right from the human days.

Sure the focus of the fixation (from adoration to fear) changed and the radical politics changed (gift economy to commmunism later finally to capitalism) but the underlying Anya was the same.

And she talks too openly about sex and takes everything so literally that people find it offputting right from the start. It's funny in reference to the scoobs (and viewers) long running assumption that all those quirks are fallout from her demony days.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I've been following this interesting discussion and trying to decide when, if and how to jump in. I think this might be a good spot- during the soul discussion, only because I heard David Fury explaining about the soul thing at a convention last summer. There was some discussion and argument about needing a soul vs not needing a soul and why Spike was sent off to get his. From the writer's mouth (with, I would assume, guidance from JW) - he said that Spike had to get his soul because he could not be redeemed until he had suffered for his sins. No matter how much good he did after the chip, no matter how much he loved Buffy, it was necessary for him to suffer and regret his former life before he was fit to be the champion. So that is their take on it - Not that he was a bad guy without it, but not fit for his final purpose because he hadn't atoned for his sins. *tiptoeing away now until I see some other comment that inspires me*

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

That could be a possible interpretation as a view of why the soul would be important. Needed as a matter of redemption rather than a matter of reform. Other views may also make sense but this is a supportible one. That's pretty good for Fury who often seems in interviews as if he were not paying attention to the show.

But it was suggested many times on AtS that the soul was insufficent for atonement. And that redemption for the crimes of Angel or Spike might be beyond the realm of the possible. Also that there is a reason to struggle for good even if redemption is not possible, which is something Angel often forgets in his darker moments.

Then various Shanshu nonsense was offered to us. Lucky for anyone who wants the shows to make any kind of sense nothing ever came of the Shanshu.

Over on BtVS redemption was never an issue, though, so it's a bit odd that it would drive such a majot plot point for just one character.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

LOL Maybe he only paid attention when they were espisodes he'd written?

Actually, most of the time the whole soul/atonement/redemtion thing makes me tired. Apparently it was important to the writers or to Joss at least from time to time. Which is very shallow of me, as the whole reason the shows worked so well is that the heroes were flawed (big time flawed!)and they were working toward being less flawed.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Thanks for dropping in. :) And unfortunately for Spike fangirls everywhere, it was necessary for him to do something awful enough that he would go to the trouble to go get his soul, so he would be capable of suffering... yada, yada. It true enough, that unsouled Spike couldn't just live happily ever after in Joss' moralityverse. It just wouldn't work.

I'm hardly the first or brightest to notice this, but what's with the suffering and atonement thing? If vampires behave as they do because they don't have a concience to counteract their lust for blood and violence, how can they be held responsible for their actions if each and every one of us, if turned, would do the same? Wouldn't an ensouled vampire would be a rescued victim rather than a criminal who suddenly has the means to atone? Seems like, when they made Spike a character and not just an object, they opened up a big rift in their space-time continuum.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Nobody lives happily ever after in the Jossverse! LOL I would be seriously concerned, were I that man's wife...

More inconsistencies - we have most vamps that are eating machines, and the then the occasional one with personality, self-control and depth. "Hello? Writers? Can we reach a consensus here?" :-)