Grrr Yes I Need to Move On

[botias]

Did not Joss himself write or creatively oversee a Buffy episode where a man is tortured terribly and then coerced into sexual acts under false pretenses? Is this not the same theme as Captivity? Is this not equally horrible?

Comments

[bendy1.livejournal.com]

He didn't have a soul, so he didn't matter.

Possibly the woman in Captivity is a manpiress.

Everyone knows the way to get equality is to debase and brutalise men as we have been debased and brutalised. This is very fair and does not contribute in the least to the general debasement and brutalisation of humanity.

The answer to violence against women is to take a random male character, whatever he may or may not have done to the female character personally, and allow the female character to deliver a nice big smackdown on his soulless butt.

In addition, we may grab James Marsters arse at every opportunity because some dude wolf whistled at us one time and we waited centuries for the vote. This is very fair and he signed up to it and shouldn't complain, nor should hookers who get raped.

:/

[botias.livejournal.com]

He didn't have a soul, so he didn't matter.

Actually, the man I am referring to is Giles in Season 2. He was tortured by Angelus, and then was coerced into baring his soul to, and into making out with, Drusilla, believing her to be his lost love. I'm not even getting into vampires; I certainly don't plan to mention Spike's shirtless torture sessions in season 7 in which the torturer makes a specific point of saying Spike's sexyness makes the torture that much more fun.

Everyone knows the way to get equality is to debase and brutalise men as we have been debased and brutalised.

I wish to go on record as saying I would not wish anyone, male or female, to be debased or brutalized. I just think it is human nature to be aroused by sex and violence and sexualized violence. I'm not going to beat anyone up for writing or enjoying fic that plays to that. Nor will I make TV shows that thoroughly take advantage of that human propensity and then turn around and flame other people for making movies that do the same.

I'm a big fan of free speech. I actually breathe a sigh of relief when people are clearly free to create art that most people think should be burned.

I do think the day of equality between the sexes is closer when women are not lumped in with children and animals as groups that require special protection, when it's not less OK to torture a woman than it is a man.

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

I knew immediately you were referring to Giles.

Okay ... I haven't googled up this "Captivity" movie so I don't know what this is all about, but I am assuming it involves men torturing a nubile young woman who is displayed in such manner to sexually arouse males in the audience?

I see this on practically every single episode of CSI, Law&Order, Medium, et al. on TV ~ victims are usually women and almost invariably "sexually attractive" and their murdered corpses are shown in a titillating fashion.

I'm not really sure I see how Angelus' torturing of Giles compares since that scene was clearly not geared toward sexually titillating the viewers.

(Or maybe I'm just not perverted kinky enough to see it that way?)

[botias.livejournal.com]

You have a very good point. Whedon does not overtly sexualize his torture, though I think I could make a case that Whedon does not shy away from sexualizing other kinds of violence. Giles' psychological torture is certainly sexual and emotional. I would argue that Spike's torture by the First was sexualized, as well as his self-immolation in the church. But these are fairly isolated examples. I feel I should confess that most everything Spike does seems sexual to me, so my opionions must be considered in that light. I would say his fight with Nikki was meant to be sexy, as well as his wrassling with Buffy in the same episode, not to mention Spike and Buffy's various rather violent sexual encounters.

I can certainly understand the viewpoint that sexuality should be viewed with reverence and/or that one should never combine it with violence. I can also understand the viewpoint that humanity should be viewed with reverence, and people should not indulge that part of themselves that is titillated by violence and/or death in any way.

But I don't think people that disagree with those viewpoints are necessarily bad or violent people, or that it necessarily demonstrates hatred and contempt of the sexual object. I do think that ME's work uses violence and death to excite, however, unlike those other examples you mentioned like CSI which I will not watch for that very reason, there's a whole lot more to BtVS than that.

[rahirah]

Joss's brand of feminism is...um...problematic.

[botias.livejournal.com]

A bit. Mostly it's his hypocrisy I'm having a problem with.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Let us not forget the slasher-movie motif that Season 7 worked so hard at, right down to the repeated scenes of females running in terror, and then being gutted by Bringers. Fun! My husband nearly stopped watching around the time of "Dirty Girls," because he was so sick of the relentless victimization.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Yes :/ *gick* The whole Bringer/Caleb thing was so nasty and heavy-handed.

[morgantree.livejournal.com]

the antidote to everything is crack!fic

just sayin'

[botias.livejournal.com]

<3 you omg! Hee!

It is, it really, really is.

[molly_may]

I think you're missing the point of what makes a movie like Captivity particularly evil. This is a movie where a woman is tortured solely because of her sexuality. There's no larger context. She's not tortured for information like Giles was, or to open a portal (plot advancement) like Spike was. She's not threatened with death because of what she might become like the Potentials are. She's tortured because she's a sexually provocative woman, and the whole point of a movie like this is to see that whore get what she has coming. And I do think that's monumentally different from any character Joss has ever tortured or killed on one of his shows.

[botias.livejournal.com]

I have not seen Captivity, but my understanding is that while she is selected for torture because she is sexy (I don't know if her captor takes that stance, that she has been selected because she is openly sexual and not just because he was attracted to her) the person with this viewpoint is not the protagonist and further the woman turns it around and gives him what many people would say such a person would 'have coming' and blows his genitals off with a gun before killing him.

I have to wonder how this different from Joss creating the character of Caleb, who clearly states he thinks women should die because women are wrong and dirty and sexual, and goes on to graphically kill/brutalize at least three on screen. In the end, like Captivity, a woman kills him in a sexualized way. It may be that some people watching BtVS will think Caleb has the right idea, or be titillated by what he does, not just because it is violent and sexual, but because they hate women. Caleb's murders may establish character, but I would argue that Caleb's little role-playing bit with the First hardly advances the plot or tells us anything new about Caleb. It's pure serial killer porn.

Can you tell me more about why you feel a larger context makes a difference? If getting off on sexualized torture is wrong, or if creating sexualized torture entertainment is wrong, I can't figure out how having a plot justification makes it any less so. ME could have chosen to have Spike's blood open the portal by having his wrist cut while he is fully clothed, or stabbed like Jonathan. Instead, they chose to have him half naked and tied in a splayed position while arcane designs are carved into his chest. Since ME is in complete control of magical elements of the plot, I got to figure they chose to do this simply because it was titillating.

[molly_may]

I got to figure they chose to do this simply because it was titillating.

Which they admitted straight up by having the First say that Spike looks better with his shirt off than Andrew. Does that make it okay? Maybe not. But it certainly shows an awareness of what they were doing.

Context is vitally important to me. Spike (just for example) is a character with countless hours of screen time. Scenes of him being tortured are mere blips in his "existence", whereas the girl in Captivity was created solely to be tortured. Her reason for "existing" (insomuch as any character exists) is so the audience can watch her be humiliated and terrorized. Yeah, she blows away the bad guy at the end. But does the audience leave thinking about the last two minutes of the movie, or about the 88 minutes that preceded it? Is the image people remember one of her blowing away her captor, or one of her pleading for her life, shooting her dog, drinking human organs, etc.? I know just from reading the review which images strike me as both more horrific and more memorable.

It may be that some people watching BtVS will think Caleb has the right idea, or be titillated by what he does, not just because it is violent and sexual, but because they hate women

I would argue that a person with this mindset would probably not be watching BTVS in the first place, since shows with powerful women would probably be repellent to them. However, a person with that mindset might very well go to see a movie like Captivity, since the ad campaign focuses on a helpless, sexy woman crying and saying she's sorry (sorry for being attractive and female, apparently).

Honestly, without seeing the movie (which I would not do for love or money), there's not much more I can say.

[botias.livejournal.com]

Her reason for "existing" (insomuch as any character exists) is so the audience can watch her be humiliated and terrorized.

I have to agree with you, yet I also have to wonder how that differs from the very definition of horror as a genre. The protagonists exist to be tortured and terrorized, and 9 times out of 10 killed in nasty ways. I find myself feeling guilty about BtVS because basically Buffy traverses seven years of exquisite torment for our entertainment. Buffy is basically punished for waking in the morning. I find myself not wanting the series to continue because I feel like the character deserves a break, which is silly what with her being fictional and all.